[Nick]

Hi!

I am a skeptic of Medjugorje, but don't worry, not gonna debate in this thread. I'm just here for one thing: Your arguments. Please let me explain.

When a person engages in a topic, be it politics or religion or economics, that person usually, based on information he has and receives, will stick to one of three sides on the topic: For, Against, or Neither. This is the case for such topics as "Is sex outside of marriage bad?" "Should penguins be in zoos?" and "Dose the Earth revolve around the Sun?" I am not advocating for sex outside of marriage, nor penguins or the resolution of the Earth, and neither do I dare generalize the three possible sides of certain topics to all topics. Rather, I'm just giving examples to help explain myself. So when a person chooses a side on a topic, he will usually only listen to those who support his side. Occasionally he might check out what other people are saying, but usually if he dose his ears won't listen to them; instead he'll be listening to himself debate them in his heads, like "Oh they only say that because of this!" or "They just think that because of this!" Now more often than not, this deafness can lead to uncharitable behavior towards others, because the person considers himself absolutely right and everyone else wrong; this isn't self-righteousness, per see, but it is a type of self-love or pride. And, while as Catholics we are required to live by and love the Truth, we are also required to live by and love Charity. And charity doesn't stop its ears when it listens to people; instead, it thoughtfully and honestly considers what others say, and, if prudence should warn it of error, it will, as gently as possible, correct the other person and pray for them to the Lord, because it knows that correction, while good, can only go so far: Only God can go the rest of the way in leading a soul to the whole truth.

I have heard lots of articles and read lots of documents on Medjugorje from the side of the skeptics. Now I want to hear the other side. Please tell me why you think Medjugorje is authentic. I'm not looking for feelings or emotions - "I felt peace there", "I was wrapped in God there" - nor am I looking for spiritual fruits - conversion, prayer, acts of charity, etc. - but rather, I am looking for objective arguments for Medjugorje backed by solid, clear evidence: For example, ecclestial obedience backed by documented cases of such obedience. You don't have to answer in the form of an argument against skepticism, nor do you have to answer in the form of a counterargument against criticism; all I ask for is your arguments.

Thank you in advance and God bless!

[pablovb]

father jozo said: if you ask what medjugorje have done this 28 years I will answer you: THE CHURCH IN MEDJUGORJE HAVE PRAYER DAY AND NIGHT FOR 28 YEARS STRAIGHT ,HAVE FASTED 28 YEARS STRAIGHT ,MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TOUCHED BY OUR LADYS EDUCATION!


i said to you nick this 6 visionaries are so authentic just see how they talk they were 6 children from a poor town they were brave they were harassed by the police .medjugorje is not a rose coloured tale of six children but is true and how can you been skeptic??.

people said why our lady choose Medjugorje an unknown little village lost in the world rather than a big chucrch in new your so that everyone would known and the answer is simple ,people there have a strong faith they were humble, hard worker people,a village where in the evening before dinner EVERY family meets to pray the Rosary after a hard day of work in the fields ,they all respect the sunday to go to mass a village that the comunist goverment gave them to choose between GOD and their catholic faith or property
electricity - water, but you know what!? they all choose God!!!

the bible said: you will know them by their fruists and also said

if is something coming from God Nothing will stoped it.

Medjugorje has the best fruits and nothing has stoped it.

[Nick]

Thank you for the reply. Do you have documented cases - i.e., documents which attest to - the good fruits of Medjugorje? This is the evidence I seek since I see objective arguments for Medjugorje. To help you out, here is what the Church teaches on good fruits (from the Norms on the Discernment of Apparitions):

I. Criteria of judgement, concerning the probability at least, of the character of the apparitions and supposed revelations.

A) Positive criteria:

a) Moral certainty, or at least great probability, as to the existence of the fact, [revelation] acquired at the end of a serious investigation.

b) Particular circumstances relating to the existence and the nature of the fact:

1. Personal qualities of the subject—in particular mental balance, honesty and rectitude of moral life, habitual sincerity and docility towards ecclesiastical authority, ability to return to the normal manner of a life of faith, etc.

2. With regard to the revelations, their conformity with theological doctrines and their spiritual veracity, their exemption from all error.

3. A healthy devotion and spiritual fruits which endure (in particular, the spirit of prayer, conversions, signs of charity, etc).

SOURCE: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/appdi ... texte.html

[bluecross]

I am a skeptic of Medjugorje, but don't worry, not gonna debate in this thread.

Really? Then why the question in your second post?

Do you have documented cases - i.e., documents which attest to - the good fruits of Medjugorje?

[davidtlig]

I am a skeptic of Medjugorje, but don't worry, not gonna debate in this thread.

Oh, and your reply to Pavlov is not debate... ??

You will not find the truth of Medjugorje through arguments. You will find it by going there, or by trying to follow what our Lady asks from us through the visionaries. Anything else is a waste of time for you and for us.

David

[Nick]

Or don’t you not the difference between debate and argument?

I don't want to debate with you. I don't want to argue you. But please hear my explanation: I only want to hear what you who believe Medjugorje is authentic have to say about Medjugorje, I only come here to listen and to learn, and that via objective arguments backed by documents. Objective arguments aren't debates, nor are documents a challenge to truth: Rather, they provide truth, just as an objective argument for Fatima or a document on the Holy Eucharist provide truth on Fatima and on the Holy Eucharist, respectively. Objective arguments are arguments which defend a truth objectively and documents are official writings which prove a truth; Christ Himself used objective arguments when He taught, for He said "I am the Bread of Life", and the whole dicourse in the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Saint John is an objective argument for the Real Presence; the Church herself uses documents when she teaches, for she has the four Gospels, which are "the memoirs of the Apostles" according to Saint Ignatius.

Now debate in itself isn't unhealthy, since a good debate can bring good fruit, yet - and again I'm not here to debate, only seeking the truth - if objective arguments and documents are considered unhealthy debate on this forum, than the moderators have the right to close this thread, and I apologize for starting an unhealthy debate, though it was not and is not my intention to do so. I only seek the truth, it is my duty as a Catholic to seek the truth, just as it is my duty as a Catholic to live by and love the truth. Our Lord Jesus Christ would accept nothing less of me, for He is the Truth Itself, as He Himself said.

[Nick]

Perhaps I did clarify myself; my apologies. An example of what I seek - and it's only an example - would be the following:

Medjugorje has good fruits. These fruits include this, this, this, and this. Here is document X to prove it.

If the document is long, please, if you can, post excerpts from it in your post so I can read them. Or, alternatively, you could tell me which sections to go to in the document that talk about the good fruits of Medjugorje. You could even emphasis that reading the whole document is necessary to understand those excerpts you provide or those sections you tell me about.

The reason I seek documents as evidence of arguments for Medjugorje is because documents prove the truth, they are a weight which show that the argument isn't hearsay or imagined but is actual and is accepted by the Church. As a Catholic I must accept what the Church accepts, I must make my mind like the mind of the Church, who's mind is attune to the Mind of Christ as the Body of Christ.

The reason I do not accept arguments based on emotion or feeling is because such arguments are subjective, not objective. The reason I do not accept arguments based on spiritual fruits is because, while spiritual fruits are a positive criteria for authentic apparitions, they are nevertheless the product of the prayer of the Church - for example, if you pray for a sinner's conversion, than God will give that sinner the grace of conversion - whereby spiritual fruits cannot be used as the first and foremost evidence of authentic apparitions. I accept, rather, the first and foremost evidence for the apparitions of Medjugorje: Namely, the moral certainty of the event and the conduct of the visionaries. Now the Church has judged the event to not be certain of supernatural origin - i.e., she cannot say whether or not the apparitions are supernatural and so is open to further investigation of the event - whereby I leave the moral certainty of the event up to the Church and proceed to the next evidence: the conduct of the visionaries. This is why I ask for documents on obedience, on health, on docility, on whatever might consist a positive fruit in regards to the visionaries.

If you have documented evidence of the visionaries' obedience, please provide it. Likewise for documented evidence of their good mental health, their docility, their honesty, their prayer life, etc. Again I cannot accept any documents from the "Franciscans" out of submission to the decree of the Holy See, yet I will accept any other documents on Medjugorje. I will not reject them, I will not look at them with anger or with hatred, because I seek the truth and he who searches for the truth must be open to the truth: Not his own truth but the very truth, even if it dose not conform to his beliefs or opinions, because it is not the truth that must bend to him but he that must bend to the truth. Indeed, we exist for the Truth Himself, not vica-versa.

Again, not trying to debate, just clarifying - explaining - myself. I apologize for so many explanations, too. I really need to get better at my communication skills. Again, my apologies. May God help me to write better and be ever charitable and truthful in my writing.

[pablovb]

nick go to www.medjugorje.hr

there you can find everything

some little example of conversion here you have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DUxYo8OCU8

[yerzy]

Everyone can have strong evidence. Go as a pilgrim to Medjugorje. But even this is not necessary. At least, Nick, take rosary in your hand, read Medjugorje messages and pray. No better argument.

April 25, 2001
"Dear children! Also today, I call you to prayer. Little children, prayer works miracles..."

October 27, 1983
"Pray, pray, pray. You will get nothing from chatter, but only from prayer. If someone asks you about me, and about what I say, answer: ‘It is no use to explain. It is in praying that we will understand better.’"

[Nick]

Thank you for the links. Where on the website you linked to could I find the evidence I seek? Is it Medjugorje Phenomenon, Spirituality, Contact...? Please help me out.

[bluecross]

Nick, YOU are setting the ground rules for debate.

You outline the terms: objective arguments backed by documents.

This is the basis for your argument and debate.

The truth of Medjugorje is not about debate and argument.

To avoid or to answer most of the points that you are hoping to raise, there is a “sticky” at the top of this section: “Answers to Medjugorje criticisms”.

Forum members get tired of answering the same old criticisms, hence the “sticky”. It saves a lot of time for everyone and is a way of keeping the peace on the forum.

[pablovb]

nick do not believe all the dirty gossip you find against medjugorje
the Franciscans of medjugorje can do sacraments

a priest always will be a priest they can give absolution and celebrate mass as long as they live!!!

[bluecross]

Thank you for the links. Where on the website you linked to could I find the evidence I seek? Is it Medjugorje Phenomenon, Spirituality, Contact...? Please help me out.

Nick, you have the link. Get working!

[Nick]

I sent a letter to the webmaster of the website, asking him for what I seek. Thank you everyone for your help. May God lead us to every truth!

Okay, leaving the forum now. I just wanted to know what your guys' arguments for Medjugorje is, and now that you provided me with the cool link to the website, I think I've found what I was seeking. Thanks again. Bye everyone! *waves*

[pablovb]

well nick after the war in yugoslavia there were so many children without parents a economic support and in medjugorje there are houses for orphans suported by all donations that medjugorje recieve from pilgrins

this movement is born thanks to medjugorje!

http://www.miridobro.it/

[point(.)]

Nick:
You ask:
Become objective and find me palpable things.
So you actually say:
Remove the spirituality from Medjugorje and now what do you see?

Well..... nothing.

Spirituality is non palpable, and somewhat subjective.

[Patriciadonovan]

Nick, YOU are setting the ground rules for debate.

You outline the terms: objective arguments backed by documents.

This is the basis for your argument and debate.

In my opinion, you are not here to learn or listen, only to argue. You have already posted links to other sites in an attempt to promote your viewpoint and argument.

The truth of Medjugorje is not about debate and argument. That is why you will not get far with your request on this forum.

To avoid or to answer most of the points that you are hoping to raise, there is a “sticky” at the top of this section: “Answers to Medjugorje criticisms”.

I guess you have probably read this or are familiar with the answers already.

Forum members get tired of answering the same old criticisms, hence the “sticky”. It saves a lot of time for everyone and is a way of keeping the peace on the forum.

Nick I can support the above comment I was on a different thread a couple of years ago and honestly felt that no one wanted to know or listen to what thought desparately needed to be debated. also I used my own name. ugh!!!

I still feel that the forum could be open on one thread to work and allow unbelievers to have their say. as well as those people like yourself
It was explained to me that there were other forums Where I could do this and I now understand that this was right. Just to clarify.


PS Not just other forums which are the most depressing but is right not to bring things or issues, arguments, or debates, that question the validity of the apparitions on this forim.

However I believe the fruits of Medjugorje are evident and it begins with your own heart. I believe too that the way we will ALL know for certain is to be patient and to do what is asked which is a very hard discipline and that is to pray the rosary and fast.


Read Book of Acts Chapter 5 verses 38-39 Gamaliel's intervention.

God Bless

Patricia

[OnASpiritualJourney2]

You know what Nick, when I read your original post in this thread, I said to myself that that's not really me. I do listen to the other side of issues, and sometimes I even change my mind on issues. But after reading a couple of your posts after Pablo gave you a beautiful reply, I'd have to say that in this instance you are right.

I'm reminded of the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." The Blessed Mother calls many, but not all respond.

[Patriciadonovan]

Hi!

I am a skeptic of Medjugorje, but don't worry, not gonna debate in this thread. I'm just here for one thing: Your arguments. Please let me explain.

When a person engages in a topic, be it politics or religion or economics, that person usually, based on information he has and receives, will stick to one of three sides on the topic: For, Against, or Neither. This is the case for such topics as "Is sex outside of marriage bad?" "Should penguins be in zoos?" and "Dose the Earth revolve around the Sun?" I am not advocating for sex outside of marriage, nor penguins or the resolution of the Earth, and neither do I dare generalize the three possible sides of certain topics to all topics. Rather, I'm just giving examples to help explain myself. So when a person chooses a side on a topic, he will usually only listen to those who support his side. Occasionally he might check out what other people are saying, but usually if he dose his ears won't listen to them; instead he'll be listening to himself debate them in his heads, like "Oh they only say that because of this!" or "They just think that because of this!" Now more often than not, this deafness can lead to uncharitable behavior towards others, because the person considers himself absolutely right and everyone else wrong; this isn't self-righteousness, per see, but it is a type of self-love or pride. And, while as Catholics we are required to live by and love the Truth, we are also required to live by and love Charity. And charity doesn't stop its ears when it listens to people; instead, it thoughtfully and honestly considers what others say, and, if prudence should warn it of error, it will, as gently as possible, correct the other person and pray for them to the Lord, because it knows that correction, while good, can only go so far: Only God can go the rest of the way in leading a soul to the whole truth.

I have heard lots of articles and read lots of documents on Medjugorje from the side of the skeptics. Now I want to hear the other side. Please tell me why you think Medjugorje is authentic. I'm not looking for feelings or emotions - "I felt peace there", "I was wrapped in God there" - nor am I looking for spiritual fruits - conversion, prayer, acts of charity, etc. - but rather, I am looking for objective arguments for Medjugorje backed by solid, clear evidence: For example, ecclestial obedience backed by documented cases of such obedience. You don't have to answer in the form of an argument against skepticism, nor do you have to answer in the form of a counterargument against criticism; all I ask for is your arguments.

Thank you in advance and God bless!

I think one of the best books I read concerning the athenticity with a critical view of the apparitions of Medjugorje was Ivan Kordic' The Apparitions of Medjugorje.

The author an experienced theologian, in the book he critically considers apparitions, Here,he leans on theological knowledge and scientific research. He analysis the basic attitudes agains't apparitions so that the reader can learn to present arguments.
Joseph Kunzli,publiher of the German edition

In this book, as in no other to date, is shown the clear line that should be followed. Fr Slavko Barbaric'. D.D.

[Patriciadonovan]

A book I haven't read yet but broused like you do? is Medjugorje Investigated by Michael Kenneth Jones www.spiritofmedjugorje.org

When the rippling waters reach the shore will history show Medjugorje as a worldwide torrent of repentence and conversion or will it be swallowed
into a whirlpool of continual controversy and disbelief? The anwer may only be known when the "warning signs" and the Chastisements" given to the visionaries are unleashed upon the world.

[BobMcCall]

Nick,
One of the best objective pieces of evidence that I read is the results of the two scientific studies performed on the visionaries (http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions ... sionaries/)
Bob

[bmarie]

An objective argument backed by solid, clear evidence:

"Are the Apparitions of Medjugorje Real?"
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jo ... akalam.pdf

[bluecross]

I was curious what Medjugorje supporters think of the apparitions, so I joined a forum and posted a thread. Feel free to follow along here:
Questions to those who believe Medjugorje is authentic - Medjugorje Forum

Posted today by “Eucharisted” – aka Nick – on Christian Forums.

I revived my old Medjugorje website. I decided to do a discernment on Medjugorje using the Church's norms. You might be wondering where I got the info from. Well, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll find some links. Those websites are where my information come from. medjugorje.webs.com

Posted January 26, 2010 by “Eucharisted” – aka Nick – on Christan Forums

Nuff said.

[Prodigals]

“The reason I seek documents as evidence of arguments for Medjugorje is because documents prove the truth . . . “

With all due respect, Nick, you are lost. You are looking for documented earthly evidence of a supernatural event. And you are not going to find it – at least not yet. The proof of Medjugorje’s authenticity will be presented, probably in your lifetime, when the Blessed Mother fulfils her promise to leave a permanent indestructible sign in Medjugorje. The problem, Nick, is that when that sign appears, it will be placed there for the unbelievers. And at that time when the sign appears, the Blessed Mother has told us (through Her visionaries) that it will be too late for those unbelievers who will then be falling to their knees.

Documents can’t prove the Truth, Nick, because the Truth is not a something – it is a somebody. And His name is Jesus Christ. And it is His Mother who has been appearing in Medjugorje for the last 28 years trying desperately to get mankind’s attention, urging us to return to God.

They did the same in Guadeloupe, Lourdes, and Fatima – they all asked for documented proof. And look how wrong they were.

The core of our religion is faith – and it is our faith that tells us that the events of Medjudorje are authentic. How do we come to have this faith, where you apparently do not? It is a gift from Our Lady. Each of us on this site received the gift when Our Lady called us and awakened us. No scientific proof was needed by each of us, no notarized document. The proof was placed in our hearts, and I am sure each of us is eternally grateful to Gospa that She selected us.

Before you are called by Our Lady, you are lost in an earthly plane, and you seek an earthly proof to a divine visitation. You’ll never find it.

Pray, Nick, that Our Lady calls you to see the wonder of Medjugorje. It is a wonder that will not be documented by your eyes, but rather by your faith-filled heart. Take it from one who has been where you are, but whose eyes were opened by Our Lady.

[tpangle]

Hi, Nick!

I am a secular historian who has been researching Medjugorje for the last 3 years or so. My response to your question is:

There is no reason NOT to believe that these apparitions are authentic.

There are many, many reasons why someone WOULD believe, but there is only one legitimate reason why the apparitions could be doubted: their length and quantity. That's really it. So if God is God and He can send His Mother to do what He wants for as long as He wants, then I guess we hae no reason to judge that.

From a secular and purely fact-based point of view, all of the other reasons not to believe in the apparitions are bogus. Many of the facts have been twisted or misrepresented. That the Bishop of Mostar has officially condemned the apparitions is absolutely and documentable false! It's funny how many people are able to believe that when Vatican and Yugoslavian Bishops Conference documents claim otherwise. The people who say they have a videotape of the visionary Marija flinching when poked during an ecstacy have never bothered to make this videotape public (if you had that level of incriminating evidence, wouldn't you do everything you could to make it public?) nor when a copy is requested will they share it. Basically, they SAY they have it, but no one has ever seen the footage but them!?!?! Seriously...

If you want the reason why, I *personally* believe I will give you several:

1) I saw with my own eyes the miracle of the sun in Medjugorje
2) The visionaries have been tested by dozens of scientists, psychologists, and medical doctors from all different belief backgrounds and all different motivations. Not one single study has claimed that the visionaries are or are even physically capable of autonomously producing the state of ecstacy they undergo when they claim they are seeing Mary.
3) Studying the incredible number and quality of lasting conversion stories is truly confounding! Medjugorje has far surpassed Guadalupe in sheer number of conversions!
4) The number of conversions that occured from the earliest days of the apparitions within the atheistic, communistic heirarchy of Yugoslavia within the first few months of the appairitons.
5) The first-hand accounts that I have gathered from both villiagers and pilots the day Medjugorje was bombed during the ethnic war in Bosnia, claiming that the bombs dropped within Medjugorje did not explode while the bombs dropped outside the city limits - from the same plane - did explode.
6) The incredible videotapes of the Medjugorje visionaries during the first few months of the apparitions. If you have not seen them watch them. The best part about video is that it doesn't lie!
7) The weakness of the visionaries. I have had the honor of meeting a few of the visionaries of Medjugorje and to be honest, I didn't have the best experience with two of them. Mirjana and Ivan really sealed the deal for me. They are without a double very human people. They are by no means perfect! Yet they risked everything, especially Mirjana, to stick to this story. I think many writers do an absolute disservice to the study of Marian appairitons by making Bernadette, Lucia, Fancisco and the rest of the visionaries out to be impeccable! Bernadette was witty and at some times rude...so was Lucia! Francisco had some serious problems with depression after Our Lady appeared to them! We look back at these perfectly portrayed visionaries and we look at the visionaries of Medjugorje and we say "They can't really be seeing Mary! If they were they'd be perfect...Like all the other visionaries of the past!" WRONG!!! I cannot tell you how WRONG!!! The visionaries of the past struggled with holiness just like we do. WE do a disservice to them and to ourselves by believing otherwise.

Sorry about the passion....I study this for a living and there is just so much incorrect information out there that really keeps us from objectively looking at the situation of private revelation!!!