Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

Moderators: TimHaley, MedjAdmin, Management

#228194
I think you have this backwards: it's called the God particle not because it proves God but because it explains more of 'the gaps' that God is assumed to fill.
So my point did not come over.
What I say is that at CERN they did not
prove the Higgs Boson exists.
They showed that the possibility that
what they measure is a random
occurrence, is less than 5 sigma.
1 in 3.5 million aprox.
So what they measured is not that
something exists, they measured
that it is unlikely that it doesn;t exist
because of what they see.
And to the people they claim it exists.
Now they believe that it exists and
they start building new houses upon
this belief. If they get results they
know that they were correct. Only
then.
I do the same thing here. :lol:
And you call it religion.

What is your 'judgement' for me?
The same as the judgement for me.
Once upon a time long ago, there
was a man and he lived close to
the equator. There were rumours
that water could exist in another
crystallized state, however nobody
had ever seen this.
The man grew old and gave up
on this myth, prayed to God and
complained: God it must be a false
rumour this hard water thing.
One day later for the brief period of
one minute, hailstones came falling
from the sky and the man had
several ice hailstones in his hands.
To his astonishment the hailstones
transformed in his hands to water.
He believed now. Water can also
be crystallized for some reason he
did not understand.
Several days later he remembered
what happened, but he was not
sure if it really happened. If the
crystals that he had in his hands
were actually made from the water
or maybe they were made of
something else. Why did they
disappear? Maybe he lost a small
detail, everything went so quick.
If only he could see it again.
He started to doubt that if what he
had seen was not an illusion.
He asked his neighbour and the
neighbour had seen nothing. The
neighbour was more interested
in tonight's monkey show.
Finally he decided that this minute
of his life he must have had a
psychosis. Probably the hope to
see a myth become reality, had
wacked his mind to the point of
creating this illusion.
So it is with me, my faith must
constantly be fed, because if not
I stop believing.
#228195
ActionReq wrote:I do the same thing here. :lol: And you call it religion.
The Higgs particle is only a tiny extrapolation that fits in beautifully with all the directly observed physical properties and laws. The fact that it does not contradict these established foundations is important.

The extent to which 'religion' exists in the same way is debateable but if it does, it does so in entirety lacking any of the established foundations required to determine how likely to be true it is - and, therefore, I'm forced to conclude that it's not!
#228196
I don't agree - I experience many experiences that cannot be repeated on demand. Emotional responses to music and art, beauty, sentiment, conscience, self-sacrifice & love. I can't explain them, they are not all on-tap!!! But I don't need to assume an answer to the questions they pose to have the lived experience of them. It is the explanation that requires evidence more than the thing itself. Why? Because there are many explanations that are compatible with the facts but only one is true. Therefore we have to be smart about discerning the true one amongst the imposters. Science does this magnificently well & has the luxury of being able to change with new evidence.
ActionReq wrote:
And what I see, also from what you just said proofs my suspicions, is that people can't get to faith. You have the people who believe without seeing. And you have the people who don't and who will never. There is a chasm fixed between those people and the possible divine experience.
Maybe. Although I hope that I have demonstrated that the non-believer does not deny existence of transcendental experiences themselves, but the explanations for them on insufficient evidence! Besides, are you not an example of someone that has 'got to faith' from being a steadfast non-believer?
All agreed. Even so you have
transcendental experiences..
Now if those transcendental
experiences have a mind, call
it God, then maybe those
transcendental experiences
testify of its self. If you want
to believe in a God at all,
maybe you could steer in that
direction, and ask those
experiences to testify of its
self or of truth.
Now you say:
But I don't need to assume an answer to the questions they pose to have the lived experience of them.
So maybe you don;t need but
you can try to assume an
answer. Then if "the thing" as
you call it starts to subtly
testify of itself, you may get
interested.
Maybe you should start talking
to it. They call that praying.
And then follows the listening.
Do not fear the response,
you are mentally stable enough
to cope with it.
#228197
ActionReq wrote:So maybe you don;t need but you can try to assume an answer. Then if "the thing" as you call it starts to subtly testify of itself, you may get interested.
Maybe you should start talking to it. They call that praying.
And then follows the listening.
Do not fear the response, you are mentally stable enough to cope with it.
Ha! I'm glad to hear it :) Well, I've done a fair amount of that as you'd know if you read my blog linked below. I'm starting to get the measure of you now and see the gentle sense of humour coming through!

As it happens, I don't generally feel a desire to believe in God but recently following the death of my excellent friend Fr Michael Krychiwskyj (I told him 3 days before he died, that in the unlikely event that I was wrong he had full permission to knock some sense into me from the other side!) I sometimes catch myself thinking it would be nice to think that we meet again ... But I don't believe it and I remind myself that it is precisely because our existence is so transient and fragile that makes it so precious to begin with...
#228198
You know this famous
parable that Jesus told:
19 `And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day,
20 and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be filled from the crumbs that are falling from the table of the rich man; yea, also the dogs, coming, were licking his sores.
22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
24 and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.
25 `And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive -- thou -- thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed;
26 and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.
27 `And he said, I pray thee, then, father, that thou mayest send him to the house of my father,
28 for I have five brothers, so that he may thoroughly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment.
29 `Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;
30 and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform.
31 And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'
Look at the last phrase:
neither if one may rise out of the
dead will they be persuaded.

That is our judgement.
If one may rise out of the dead,
it is nothing. If two raise from
the dead, it is nothing. If three
raise from the dead somewhere
it is still nothing. What is
needed is a device or a person
who systematically and
consistently raises people from
among the dead and they will
"believe".
.....for a while.....
The chasm fro the parable that
is fixed is that what I can see
here. You want proof and touch
something that what you
accept to be the bottom. But
the bottom is too far away and
way too complex.
That exactly is the great chasm
that is fixed between you and
the truth.
As it happens, I don't generally feel a desire to believe in God
But I don't believe it
Maybe you want to read this
book that I wrote.
booklet
#228200
ActionReq wrote:Look at the last phrase: neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.
Hmm. Maybe, but it would be a start. The fact is, there has never been a verified instance of someone being raised from the dead so it's a bit of a moot point really. If you continue to read these passages (as I'm sure you have) you'll know that being raised from the dead was far from being a unique event 2000 years ago. But isn't this a bit like the great sign and other miracles - isn't this just another form of attempting to prove by evidence - when surely the bigger point you are making is that faith is a virtue in itself - that is, according to some priests at least, devalued in the attempt to seek the miraculous.
ActionReq wrote:The chasm fro the parable that is fixed is that what I can see here. You want proof and touch something that what you accept to be the bottom. But the bottom is too far away and way too complex. That exactly is the great chasm that is fixed between you and the truth.
When you refer to 'the bottom' you are referring to something that I don't believe exists so this is illogical to me - it can only make sense from your point of view. I understand your point but I don't agree with the assumptions and premises required to believe it. In this case, for me, 'the bottom' does not exist so it makes not sense to call it 'far away' or 'too complex'. When you talk about the chasm between me and 'the truth' I think we should acknowledge that this is based upon your version of the truth that has come to you, in part, through a personal revelation.
ActionReq wrote:
As it happens, I don't generally feel a desire to believe in God
But I don't believe it
I'm not clear why you wanted to single these two quotes out unless to try to show a contradiction or at least conflict in my thinking. I'm just trying to illustrate that I love and feel loss and sometime wish things were otherwise to the way I believe them to be. But then, you have not commented on the bigger point (at least, from my point of view) - I think that an eternity of life takes you're eye off the moment - it blinds people to the precious brevity of existence. All the things we value most in our lives tend to be defined by the shortness of their supply. This leads me to a conflicted thought: regardless of what I believe to be true I can't quite bring myself to think that I would want it to be otherwise.
ActionReq wrote:Maybe you want to read this book that I wrote. booklet
I will! :-)
#228201
When you refer to 'the bottom' you are referring to something that I don't believe exists so this is illogical to me - it can only make sense from your point of view.
When you touch the bottom I refer to
that it is fully understandable for you.
It can only make sense from my point of view?
That is only true under
the premise that there is lack a of
knowledge. And certainly there seems
to be lack of knowledge.

Meanwhile I am absolutely certain that
everything has a proper explanation
when the knowledge comes available.

However, and that is what I try to
accomplish in you, sometimes you
need to accept an assumption with
faith, to continue to find a truth,
deeper down in the chasm. A branch
where you can stand on. That is
called a lemmata.
Because if you can't bridge the whole
chasm with faith, like me, then you
will have to go all the way down
to the bottom of the pit, and then
climb up again on the other side.
A bit like Dante's inferno. Most likely
you get stuck in there.
User avatar
By Maryh
#228213
Please don't take this the wrong way Pete but I wonder have you ever had anyone say prayers of deliverance over you? & Do you go to confessions?
Holy people prayed for me & I think it was an important first step along my faith journey! The power of prayer.
Not saying it would be the same for you; but I'd highly recommend it.
There could be something blocking your way. (Not meaning to get creepy on you)

Things changed dramatically for me even though I had zero % faith.
& even if I did spend the next 5 years pretty much trying to fathom out what just happened intellectually & not doing any of the proper stuff like praying, studying the bible, going to mass and the sacraments, things that actually increases faith.

I was 100% at the same place as when you said this for years and years actually:
PeteStarr wrote:I'm just trying to illustrate that I love and feel loss and sometime wish things were otherwise to the way I believe them to be.
I think there are books about deliverance too & the prayers to say. Maybe your wife could pray them for you? :D
I'll want my future husband to say these kind of exorcism prayers for me on a regular basis.
It may even be a requirement. :lol:
But those and going to confessions, things can & do change. God is a God of surprises!

Basically we need the holy spirit on board, we cannot do it all by ourselves.
#228214
Hi MaryH,

I'm not quite sure what "taking it the wrong way" would be! I'm here voluntarily very much aware that I'm in your territory here and comfortable with that! I certainly don't feel insulted, offended or threatened by it so please rest assured on that account.

I have certainly had holy people pray for me - I think I have been in the prayers of a number of priests encountered in my various trips to Međugorje and most especially by the late Fr Michael Krychiwskyj, a Catholic priest with whom I had a very great friendship. MedugorjePrayers tells me that he has Sisters associated with M Theresa pray for me so I think the answer to that must be 'yes'.

With regards to confession then the answer is "no". I wear my heart on my sleeve generally but cannot, in good conscience confess to a priest when I don't believe in God - I also do not really like the idea of absolution of 'sin', forgiveness yes, but even then, only by the person you've wronged.

If you've followed this discussion from the beginning you'll know that I voluntarily immersed myself in the Međugorje experience as fully as conscience and integrity permitted. Towards the end of my last visit I said to Fr Leon Pereira "What should I do now? What more can I do?". "Do?", he replied, "Don't 'do' anything, you've done enough. The ball is in God's court now."

I'm inclined to agree. I've been a steadfast atheist all my life but have grabbed this experience by the horns. I can't keep chasing rainbows! I say there is no evidence. I'm told that faith is the true virtue and evidence should not be sought and yet I see people of faith reaffirming their beliefs using evidence all the time ... Miracles are evidence. The tendency to see God's hand in everything is taken as evidence. I'm no different - it's just that the as a non-believer I need to see different evidence, evidence that doesn't already assume the answer. I've said it before - there are fantastic things described in the bible - raising the dead, water into wine, conjuring food, casting out spirits, parting seas, talking to God and collecting stone tablets from him! More recently in Međugorje: parchment & great signs. Would any of these do it?

I don't know what I need but any contemporary demonstration the like of which is often described in ancient texts, talked about in modern times but never observed or experienced in the same way would be a step in the right direction. That's the gap that I need to see filled. A tiny scrap of evidence that I can believe in!

Thanks for posting MaryH.
#228216
stunnedbyit wrote:Without giving too much away, did any of the others in the film experience anything "tangible" which left you thinking "I wish I'd had that experience/perception"?
That's a good question. Had you asked whether any of the others experienced anything that they felt was significant then the answer would, unhesitatingly, have been 'yes'.

But tangible is a difficult word - "perceptible by touch, clearly & distinctly true". It seems to me that this is a word very much aligned with the physical experience of the world and the significant part of the Medjugorje experience for all of us was not really the physical - except for the physical challenge of walking a lot, especially up rocky hillsides, that really does focus the mind - especially in the heat of the day! In that literal sense perhaps the only tangible thing was the weeping christ statue - some of the group were moved by that, but whether they actually thought it to be miraculous. I doubt it and that is definitely not the kind of experience I was looking for.

I think to give you a meaningful answer we need to broaden the scope a bit by removing 'tangible' from the question. When I asked Mirjana what I should do she said I should go to Blue Cross early in the morning and pray. "How?" I asked. She said (something like) "Just go and talk to her, whatever is in your mind. Your doubts... everything. You'll get an answer." This advice from Mirjana, addressed to me, was ultimately taken up by all of us at some point. I went the following morning at 3.30am - and was alone for about an hour - thereabouts. I did my best to follow the advice given - I must admit - I frequently found myself getting lost in a thought and having to refocus on the task in hand. I did not expect a personal visit or anything dramatic. In fact, I can't honestly say that I expected anything - and I said so (in the spirit of honesty). I did not experience any response to this effort - and still have not.

With regards to the others - I know that all of them found being at Blue Cross, alone, in the nearly dark, lost with their thoughts and / or prayers to be a very moving experience - but quite a personal one - so it did not get talked about much. This does not surprise me - I think all types of contemplative practices can leave one feeling 'at peace', content, a little more enlightened - at least for a while. This is not to say that the others didn't experience anything but if they did I was not aware of it or was not moved to think it was anything out of the ordinary. The completion of my journey on that morning took me up Apparition Hill as soon as the first of the other pilgrims put in an appearance and spoiled my private appointment! I hiked on up to the statue and listened to the dog's chorus echoing around between the hills at daybreak. On the way down, in beautiful sunlight, I captured some thoughts on the GoPro - some of which were used in the film as narration. No great revelations though.

I know I bang on about this and it is not really what you are asking about but there was plenty in the shared experience that was purely about human interaction that was intense and wonderful. Having had similar experiences in very different contexts I have no reason to believe that that was anything to do with Medjugore BUT I do know that that particular wonderful experience could not have happened without Medugorje and for that I'm very grateful!

Pete
#228217
Maryh wrote:Pete...have you ever had anyone say prayers of deliverance over you?
It's just occurred to me that I might have misunderstood this. Are prayers of deliverance a particular kind of prayer, different from your regular, pray for someone type prayers? Excuse my ignorance.
User avatar
By Maryh
#228220
Yes Pete, they would be different that just somebody praying casually for you.

There were a husband and wife team who prayed for me & they were highly unusual people. They meant business!
It was like a heavy duty operation, they were blessing the room and praying first and sprinkling holy salt, they had holy relics, the blessed sacrament there, they were quoting biblical passages, it was intense stuff. :shock:
I found it all a bit freaky at first if I'm honest.
However-They blew me out of the water! I have never been the same since.

I don't know where to direct you to find people like these, maybe a charismatic prayer meeting?
A priest with a special assignment for these prayers of deliverance would probably be best.

Here is a link of a book I heard was good too, that would have prayers that you & your wife could say yourselves.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prayers-Demons ... out+demons
The title sounds a bit freaky too, but don't let it stop you! I discovered truthfully it really is a serious business this kind of carry on.. there actually is spiritual warfare.
Its really not in my nature to be into this kind of thing. I'm not into horror movies or ghost hunters or the like-I'm not into getting any kind of thrills like this.
My favourite day to day books that I feel really helps my faith and encourages are these kind of ones:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Moments-Peace- ... he+evening

About confession-its a sacrament & the priests prayers for you at the end would be really powerful ones to 'deliver' as well.
By the way; I struggle with confession too after a few dire experiences, but don't be deterred.

I don't really know how to find the words to express just how important it is without sounding like a total mad woman. :lol:
Its still all relatively new to me too Pete!
#228224
MaryH,

I think the prayers for me were not 'casual' they were just not exorcising in quite the way you describe.

I'm curious - if you were similar in outlook to me what was it that motivated you to go seeking the kinds of intense prayer experiences you describe in your post?

Pete
#228225
To me it is quite clear, and it was from
the beginning when I spoke of the
Scandinavian engineer that I met.
The gap between God on the one
side and the thinking people on the
other, has become too wide and
too deep. The poor in the parable of
poor Lazarus don't care for
knowledge and carried over the
gap they are, by faith and angels.
The rich in knowledge, well free will
doesn't allow God to carry them over
the gap.
The rich in knowledge are being
slaughtered. If God doesn't inspire
the Holy Spirit in them directly, they
will never get the faith necessary to
bridge the gap. And that inspiring
of the Holy Spirit costs too much.
It costs third person prayer.
Them rich in knowledge actually
know near to nothing and think
they know they can judge God to
not exist. In doing that they rely
on statistics, and therefore easily
loose their faith. Prayer wasted.
I believe saving them, that is the
challenge of Medjugorje
#228228
Upon rereading that what I said:
Prayer wasted.
Sounds rude without discernment.
What I mean to say is:
The prayer of the people gives God
the strength to help God to convert
people. People who through prayer
of other people get a quick glimpse
of God. People who then brush the
glimpse away and say to
themselves: Must have been my
imagination.
So my thought is: the prayer was
wasted, because it did not have the
expected effect. But not really
wasted because it adds up to the
statistics of the person who had not
come to faith yet. And through even
more prayer after many many
glimpses, maybe that person does
come to faith, enough to save his
soul and carry it to the bosom of
Abraham.
I speak from a different reality, just
wondering how this comes over
to people, rereading a bit, it did
not take much time to find I may
come over quite rude sometimes.

However the conclusion of my
reality is: pray pray pray.
And pray even more, Empower God!
#228229
stunnedbyit wrote:Thanks for your lengthy reply Pete - I will watch the film once released on DVD as there are no showings in Scotland (unsurprisingly!).
I'll be be interested to know what you think! DVD release not likely while its doing so well in theatres!
stunnedbyit wrote:On a side note, here is a link for a documentary regarding the scientific side of the Medjugorje phenomena:
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=jpcbeqarE_g
I've seen this. The difficult thing about visions and supernatural claims is always the same - very difficult, if not impossible, to prove true or false. The doctors here conclude that there are not mad, on drugs, hypnotised, hallucinating etc and say that this poses a mystery for science. They do not claim to use the science to prove what is claimed however. Additionally, there has been much criticism of the the science both in terms of objectivity, method, execution and interpretation of the experiments. I'm afraid that it still does t help that much other than to increase the faith on one side and the scepticism on the other.
User avatar
By Maryh
#228243
PeteStarr wrote:I'm curious - if you were similar in outlook to me what was it that motivated you to go seeking the kinds of intense prayer experiences you describe in your post?
Well Pete, I wasn't actually seeking these intense prayer experiences whatsoever.
Long story short; I went as a full blown atheist to smoke them out: I believed these people were some kind of frauds/cowboys.
I was not there with any kind of angelic intentions or motivation!

You see; I had done this previously to this other 'religious' guy my Mother had been to.
I found what he had been saying highly questionable and infuriating because it distressed my Mom & so I went along to investigate & my conclusion was just to stay well away.

So I went along to the husband & wife team in a similar fashion, to investigate them mostly. (I had my scientist/Private investigation cap on & was there to research/validate & form conclusions about them.)
I definitely got more than I bargained for! :lol:
Well I was very wrong about them. I could not deny the truth of what had happened.

But what I think can happen to us is a kind of spiritual starvation, where we've gone so long without, we have no appetite anymore:
Or just an inability for it.
Like how if somebody is anorexic, they don't want food anymore even though that's what they really need, because they're getting malnourished. I think the same thing can happen to us spiritually.
This can happen for many reasons, this state of affairs.
I had 'given up' hoping there was a God, based on my life circumstances. (I know there would have been many a lot of worse off than me but that's just how it was).

I think its a very delicate operation to acquire any kind of faith at the beginning. Almost like we're just not able for it in many respects.
I want to encourage you to keep searching though Pete. Its not a lost cause or some kind of wild goose chase.
My guess is that your trying to excavate the foundations of your faith already by your great patience for these lively discussions of yours.
Leaving no stone unturned is what your at now Pete! :)
ActionReq wrote:The rich in knowledge are being slaughtered. If God doesn't inspire the Holy Spirit in them directly, they will never get the faith necessary to bridge the gap.
I totally agree with this in the sense that things are just in a confused state & not in the correct order if the holy spirit isn't' involved and we're trying to do it all ourselves. :?

Even though I now KNOW there is a God & its all true about Jesus. Trusting in God is something I have to do every day in order for my faith to grow. Taking leaps of faith is scary at times.
#228329
Reading "Veritatis Splendor" item 99, I found
something we we talking about the yoke of
secularism.. Maybe you should read it.
99. Only God, the Supreme Good, constitutes the unshakable foundation and essential condition of morality, and thus of the commandments, particularly those negative commandments which always and in every case prohibit behaviour and actions incompatible with the personal dignity of every man. The Supreme Good and the moral good meet in truth: the truth of God, the Creator and Redeemer, and the truth of man, created and redeemed by him. Only upon this truth is it possible to construct a renewed society and to solve the complex and weighty problems affecting it, above all the problem of overcoming the various forms of totalitarianism, so as to make way for the authentic freedom of the person. "Totalitarianism arises out of a denial of truth in the objective sense. If there is no transcendent truth, in obedience to which man achieves his full identity, then there is no sure principle for guaranteeing just relations between people. Their self-interest as a class, group or nation would inevitably set them in opposition to one another. If one does not acknowledge transcendent truth, then the force of power takes over, and each person tends to make full use of the means at his disposal in order to impose his own interests or his own opinion, with no regard for the rights of others.... Thus, the root of modern totalitarianism is to be found in the denial of the transcendent dignity of the human person who, as the visible image of the invisible God, is therefore by his very nature the subject of rights which no one may violate — no individual, group, class, nation or State. Not even the majority of a social body may violate these rights, by going against the minority, by isolating, oppressing, or exploiting it, or by attempting to annihilate it"
User avatar
By Maryh
#228337
I love this extract you included Actioreq. How true it is, I find that even Christians can become totalitarian in outlook sometimes. :roll:

Was thinking about what I posted earlier to Pete, and now feel I was mistaken in recommending that first book about spiritual warfare.
I think it's a lot more important to find out & focus on who God really is than anything else.

Then automatically we know that its God who fights our battles for us when we trust in him. We don't have to worry or fret about enemies and the like.
:worried
Just wanting thing to work out!
#228433
ActionReq wrote:Maybe you want to read this book that I wrote.
booklet
I did! Finally.

I think that you summarise the double-slit experiments well but extrapolate this to fit your theory of faith - a bit like drawing a bulls eye around the arrow rather than actually hitting a predefined target. The result of your thesis - that faith is real and applies to all situations - is not well established by this argument in my opinion and is certainly not predicated on the evidence established through quantum theory. Ironically - you take a leap of faith to establish the significance of faith. Even were this not the case you have put the object of your interest under close scrutiny (through curiosity) and so doing, have put in jeopardy, the reliability of your own results for precisely the same reasons that you are critical of in you book.

As for the scriptural references at the end I see no link between them and the the 'evidence' you cite - other than a pious desire to link your own interpretations back to that of the original teacher i.e. Jesus. However, I do not see that this follows logically from the arguments given in your book. Additionally - Jesus is apparently operating in a way that is not available to contemporary scrutiny. It is easy to claim what someone did 2000 years ago - much harder to try and evidence that in the present day, especially without the direct interaction claimed of the original.

I fear that you have set yourself an impossible task, to justify and prove ancient scriptural teaching with contemporary physics. I agree that the quantum physics is a fascinating area of study that opens up whole new vistas of scientific endeavour - but we are merely babes when it comes to understanding this. I find myself hoping that we can have this discussion in 2000 years time ... but then again, ironically, were we able to do that there would be no need for it! :-)

Pete
#228434
PeteStarr wrote:but then again, ironically, were we able to do that there would be no need for it! :-)

Pete
Of course there is no proof in the
text itself....
The proof lies in the fact to find someone
who wins the lottery a couple of times in
a row after using the technique described
in the book.
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