[bluecross]

The process of shrine-making continues... Yesterday Pope Francis met with the Croatian President member of Bosnia & Herzegovina. No mention of Medjugorje (publicly) but I see this as another protocol step towards establishing Medjugorje as a Sanctuary of the Holy See.

Pope Francis meets with Dragan Čović in private audience

2017-06-01 Vatican Radio

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Thursday received in audience Dragan Čović, Croatian Member of the Collegial Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the Vatican Apostolic Palace.

A statement from the Holy See Press Office said, "During the cordial discussions, satisfaction was expressed for the good bilateral relations, consolidated by the Basic Agreement of 2006, and the parties considered the situation of the country, the challenges it finds itself facing and its European aspirations, with an exchange of views on themes of interest such as peace, reconciliation, interreligious dialogue and the presence of the Catholic community in the country."

It went on to say they also spoke about "various situations in currently international political affairs, with special reference to the regional context".

Mr. Čović subsequently met with Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, accompanied by Archbishop Paul Richard Gallagher, Secretary for Relations with States.

[thebpman]

The more I think about the position of the Church and the Pope's personal opinion the more comfortable I am. I think the Pope is a brilliant man and the veiw of the resent recommendations to Church is possibley the best outcome at this stage. I don't know anything about the politics of making Medjugorje a shrine or what that would mean for who is going to run the whole show or even if that really matters. It's an each way bet now that allows progress to be made but doesn't rule out risk of human error.
I still think the visionaries see and speak to the Mother of Jesus. I can see the difference between the messages on the 25th and the 2nd of the month but I think it's because the message comes through two very different filters. If you tell two different people the same message you will get two very different responses when you ask them to repeat it. BC if you put two different filters on your camera for the same photo you will get two very different pictures.

[bluecross]

I don’t use filters, other than a standard UV filter as a lens shield , but I understand the filter argument about the messages given out by the seers. That may explain the difference in tone and substance, but does it prove the messages are real?

Get two people (or six) to look at a painting on the wall and ask them what they see and how it speaks to them.

The added bonus is that we see the painting as well, but we don’t see the apparition.

However, if we listen to the people giving their description over the radio and we are not familiar with what an apparition looks like. Then we can use our imagination. But we can also be fooled in this way. The ‘observers’ may be describing a painting they say they are looking at when in fact there is no painting there.

Before my time, but the War of the Worlds Radio drama illustrates this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_o ... dio_drama)

The Emperor’s New Clothes is another example of people playing along with someone’s fantasy until the little boy came out with the truth: “This is not the Mother of Jesus”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emper ... ew_Clothes

Am I saying the seers are fantasising? No.

I know the presence of God’s creative Spirit is in this world. Some people recognise this when they witness the spectacle of the spinning sun. His creation can touch hearts. The birth of a child is another moment of God’s wonder in the world. There are signs everywhere if we choose to look and recognise his work in nature and in the hearts of people. So in all these ways we are blessed to witness the hand of Heaven in our lives. The sign of the cross is the greatest sign of God’s love. The blue cross at Medjugorje is a greater visible sign than Our Lady. There are more sightings of the Cross at Medjugorje than any of Our Lady. Work it out.

It’s interesting to watch pilgrims when reach they the top of Apparition Hill. First approach is to the white statue of Our Lady, not the large Crucifix on the left side. Some do make their way to the Crucifix after praying at the statue. Some also ignore the Crucifix.

This also happens at the white statue in front of St James’ church. All eyes are focused on the statue, though some pilgrims will kneel before the small crucifix attached to the railings, kiss it and pray in front of it.

Children are very good at doing this because the crucifix is at a good height for them, but it is interesting that they approach Jesus first. Mary is less accessible.

There is a railing preventing anyone from getting too close and damaging the statue. However, the crucifix does get soiled and damaged over time with all the human contact –– a reminder of the time when Our Lady invited people to touch her apparition and Vicka got upset when the apparition’s dress began to show stains. But with Jesus there is a difference, he is a willing carrier of our stains, our sins. His cross is proof of this.


From my blog...

Our Lady, with her left hand extended, is calling – but not to herself, it seems. She is surrounded by railings – fenced off. But see how she offers instead her Son and our Saviour, Jesus, on the Cross fixed to the railings. We can touch and even kiss the Crucifix. There is no restriction. It is even at a height for little children to reach comfortably. For adults, the more natural approach is by kneeling. And we see from this position that Our Lady’s pose is one of presentation.

I am reminded of the words in Matthew’s gospel (12 :6)

Now here, I tell you, is something greater that the Temple.

[maryannlucy]

Could you state your intention for running a few blogs about Medjugorje if you don't think the Mother of Jesus is giving messages? Are you now posting doubt to dissuade the remaining people that believe these messages are from the Mother of Jesus? Could you state what your intentions are? You are quite active to antagonize conservative interpretations of the meaning of Our Lady's messages and now you simply say it isn't even Our Lady. I just don't understand where you are coming from and rather than beating around the bush, could you just tell me?

[bluecross]

I’ve said recently on this forum, I encourage anyone to go to Medjugorje and avail of the very special graces there.

So I don’t see why I shouldn’t blog or have a website to promote Medjugorje.

Even the Church is preparing to legitimise Medjugorje as a pontifical sanctuary, but it hasn’t yet said as a condition of going there that pilgrims should believe in Our Lady’s messages, or even not believe. The official stance of the Church has nothing against Medjugorje as long as pilgrims venerate the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church.

Where have I said that the messages are not from Our Lady? The Pope may have said he has doubts. I may have doubts about some of the reported messages and the way they are presented – past and present, but I have never said Our Lady has not been giving messages.

God speaks to all people in his own way. Some choose to listen, some don’t. Some prefer to go direct to God, others prefer to go through his mother. I speak with his mother daily, as I do with God. And they both speak to my heart. Some prefer a direct line, others prefer messages transmitted through seers. We make choices.

Even Mirjana will tell you that she also has to understand the messages she receives in her own way. They may mean different things to different people. So we are invited to discern. I understand that the clearest message anyone can give to another is by example. I’m sure Our Lady would agree on that. I know so, because one of the Medjugorje seers once told me this.

I asked her the question: “For those who are unable to come to Medjugorje, how does Medjugorje come to them?” I was expecting her to respond on the lines of the five stones: prayer, fasting etc. But she replied: “Through you, be an example, a good example.” (Easier said than done).

Mirjana said in her last message that Our Lady had said to her: “I am showing you the way by which you need to go, and those are the words of the Gospel.” So it’s the Gospel message Our Lady is pointing to, her own son, the word of God. So I give priority to reading and trying to absorb Scripture as my inspiration rather than messages from seers, be they from Medjugorje or elsewhere.

You may feel antagonized by some of my recent posts. You may seem them as posting doubt. But Medjugorje isn’t just about Our Lady’s apparitions and messages. It’s more than that, and that’s why I have spent the last 17 years encouraging people to go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje and taking groups there myself.

But I will stress that Pope Francis has publicised his personal opinion about the ongoing apparitions for a reason. Again, people have a choice, to listen, even accept what he says, or dismiss his comment. And as we have all been waiting for many years on the outcome of the Medjugorje Commission and what the Pope will have to say, then is seems sensible not to dismiss his opinion, personal or not. He may firm up on this at a later date, he may not. We shall have to wait and see.

[maryannlucy]

In your post about the Emperor's new clothes you said
The Emperor’s New Clothes is another example of people playing along with someone’s fantasy until the little boy came out with the truth: “This is not the Mother of Jesus”.
So one could infer that you are stating as 'truth' that this is not the Mother of Jesus or are you saying Pope Francis is saying this? It would be fine if in your heart you say this, but if you post continuously to sow doubt, then I have to question your motives. Most people that start to doubt do so and then leave quietly. Some doubt and then try to get others to 'see the light' and leave. Which type are you?
We are guests on this forum. The person that set it up works very hard to spread the messages, we should at least operate from the principle that we believe in this great plan of Our Lady.

[bluecross]

So one could infer that you are stating as 'truth' that this is not the Mother of Jesus or are you saying Pope Francis is saying this?

Again, you have a choice. Some choose to infer, some will not. Some will see things for what they are, others will have their own reasons for choosing not to want to.

I have answered the question you asked of me which you seem not to want to accept or try to understand. But instead you want to nail me down, asking which type are you?

And I do believe in the great plan and love that God has for all of us (and through the intercession of Our Lady who says “do whatever he tells you”), or isn’t that acceptable to you?

Allow me to ask you one question: Do you believe that these are the last apparitions of Our Lady on earth?

I ask you this, not to try sow doubt, but because for many years this was (and may still be) the belief of many people who follow the messages. It was even put in a letter to the Pope by the former priest Tomislav Vlasic who claimed Mirjana told him this. It still does the rounds in books and on the internet.

Years later Mirjana explained that three words were missing from the statement –– “in this way” –– which of course changes the understanding completely. Now suppose I was one of those who believed what Vlasic had written to Pope JPII and had disseminated this message far and wide, only to be told later that the message was incomplete and had different meaning after all. Should I not ask the question how many more of the messages are incomplete and have had the context changed to suit someone else’s agenda?

So this is what I mean when I have doubts about some of the messages past and present.

[maryannlucy]

If you want to know the whole context of what Mirjana has said in her own words, verified by her and not in the words of an interviewer, you really ought to read "My Immaculate Heart will Triumph." It is about her life and her mission since she was 16 years old. I think if you refuse to read it and state in various threads many questioning statements and doubts, then it doesn't really help. I could send you the book, if you want. Just send me a message with your address if you want. I have no idea about what is going to happen in the future. I look forward to the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, whatever that entails whether it includes apparitions of Our Lady or not. I don't need Medjugorje to live my Catholic faith but I certainly appreciate that Our Lady comes and appears every day in the world to pray with us and offer encouragement and advice. I will never understand why that is so threatening to others.

[thebpman]

Thanks for your veiw BC. You're taking an each way bet too. I've experienced a bit too much to do this. You've may have experienced too much not to. Funny that. We all agree to focus on the Gospel. That's what Our Lady wants anyway. She first appeared on the Feast of John the Baptist. Jesus must increase. Cheers

[bluecross]

She first appeared on the Feast of John the Baptist.

Not without significance.

It’s not clear in Luke’s gospel if Mary stayed with Elizabeth until the birth of John. It simply says:

“Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then went back home.”

So maybe also by appearing at Medjugorje for the first time on the Feast of the Nativity of the Baptist the Blessed Mother was also letting us know she was with Elizabeth when her cousin gave birth.

maryannlucy: Thank you for your kind offer, but I have read transcripts of many talks given by Mirjana over the years –– her own words. Also witnessed her speaking outside her home on several occasions. Attended a talk she gave in the UK and have listened to her speaking on many videos. I have all I need to know about Mirjana as well as several photographs I’ve taken of her (some below) to accompany her testimonies in a newsletter I’ve distributed since 2002. Also some of my friends have her book if I ever do decide I want to read it but, to be honest, I gave up buying and reading books about Medjugorje at least seven years ago. But I do appreciate your kindness.





The photo with the message about lamenting for the messages is interesting. The part message was given to Marija 30 years ago! Obviously, Our Lady has a different sense of time and the word ‘soon’ than I do!

[johntt]

But I will stress that Pope Francis has publicised his personal opinion about the ongoing apparitions for a reason.

I remain quite fascinated by the Pope's words about Medjugorje on the plane back from Fatima. However, I don't view his responses to his questioner in the same way as BC. To me, Pope Francis was asked a question and he answered it as honestly as he could. I don't think he was trying to make a point but was just telling us what he thought about the matter. Of course many have said he should have kept quiet if it was nothing more than his own personal opinion. Yet I do view the Pope's response as important, it's just that I don't yet know its significance.

I remain utterly amazed that he can see the fruits yet not the tree that produced them. If only his questioner on the plane had followed up with that question!

[bluecross]

I remain utterly amazed that he can see the fruits yet not the tree that produced them. If only his questioner on the plane had followed up with that question!

I’m guessing that there is a protocol system when submitting questions to the Pope, perhaps the questions even having to be submitted beforehand and the number and time allowed limited for the session. Not all the journalists will get the opportunity to submit a question.

As to not seeing the tree that produces the fruit, the Pope knows exactly the source of the fruit and that’s why he is not keen to cut down the tree. The source is the Holy Spirit, but not everyone can recognise this and so attribute everything to Our Lady when, in fact, it is Our Lady who originally said yes for the Holy Spirit to come upon her.

Mary is an intercessor. She is not God. She does not perform miracles but, as at Cana, she intercedes on our behalf. She also demands that we help fill the jars of water as Jesus tells us to. The miracle happened at Cana when the jars were filled to the brim. Hence the power of prayer. Jesus did not turn the water into wine until the six jars were completely filled. The power of prayer and silence (waiting on the Lord) at Medjugorje is very intense and effective in opening hearts to repentance and being filled with the grace the Holy Spirit desires to give all of us. Mary gave the example of humble submission with her ‘fiat’. Her example is repeated at Medjugorje, witnessed by the long lines of people ready to submit to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and so repent of their sins and reconcile with God.

The Holy Father knows this sure sign of the Holy Spirit, ever present in this world, is also ever-present at Medjugorje. There can be not denying the sign by the Church. It would be in denial of itself if it did so, and God does not deny himself. Even opponents of Medjugorje recognise this sign and accept the claim that Medjugorje is the largest confessional of the world.

The bpman mentioned the connection of John the Baptist, and we know how the people flocked to him to be baptised in water. But John also told the people they would be baptised later with the Holy Spirit and fire. Coincidently, on the day Our Lady first appeared at Medjugorje, June 24, 1981, the local post office was struck by lightening and caught fire.

Was this a sign that a new postmistress had arrived in Medjugorje and her messages would set people on fire?

In the account of the Visitation, Mary relayed a message to her cousin Elizabeth, saying her soul had been set on fire (proclaiming the Lord).

It’s an acclamation many at Medjugorje can associate with.

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
and my spirit exults in God my saviour;
because he has looked down on his lowly handmaid.”

[Medjugorjeprayers]

Quality images of Mirjana BC. If I were Mirjana, I would be very pleased with these Thanks for sharing...