[stunnedbyit]

The question isn’t the issue. It’s the motive behind the question. That’s why Prodigals and yourself rally behind the question because your motive is not the question, it’s personal, a dislike of Pope Francis, probably his style and his forthright witnessing. If it’s not the question raised by the four cardinals then you will seek another dispute against the Pope to pin your flag to.

.

Wrong assumption. I am a big fan of the way that he reaches out to lay people - his compassion and concern for people shines brightly. I can imagine that he was an amazing support to the poor and marginalized in Buenos Aires.
However, I think that he causes much confusion in the teaching side of things. With his comments, he regularly leaves people wondering if he's changed or tweaked Church teaching.
This is what concerns me, not "his style and his forthright witnessing."

[maryannlucy]

I sense some hypocrisy here. The truth is fine to proclaim as long as it doesn't apply to those proclaiming it? If we are not to criticize priests, that means ALL priests. The Bishop of Mostar was described as sending 'bombardment' a rather inflammatory word, don't you think? In reading through old pages of this forum to try to find something, I always read your posts and many times you sparring with someone only to delete your contentious posts later. I guess it is just how you are, but you should apologize to some of us for saying we are evil.

[Prodigals]

This is what concerns me, not "his style and his forthright witnessing."

If he was "forthright" as bc wrongly thinks, then there would be no legitimate questions as to his meaning - no dubia.

[bluecross]

Do I hear a gear shift to reverse?

However, I think that he causes much confusion in the teaching side of things.

I’m not confused. Neither is Pope Francis, by his teaching or the agenda of others to undermine his teaching.
I’m a regular reader of all that he says. And I’m no academic. There’s no confusion on my part when I read his homilies. Do you read them? Everyday? Or do you prefer reading material from sources that are antagonistic to Pope Francis?

We are what we eat and drink. Eat and drink from a sour source and we are sure to get an upset stomach and become sour in the process, even confused.

By the way, the Pope reaches out to the consecrated as well, but maybe you haven’t picked up on that or read any of his talks to priests. He is a Holy Father, after all.

And you must know if any of your kids step out of line it doesn’t diminish your love for them. And don’t you reprimand them when necessary? Does that make you a bad or uncaring father when you have to do so?

Now I have to focus and deal with some personal matters coming up later this month. None of us are excluded from these kind of challenges, even cardinals and popes. Hope to surface again in September.

Peace and enjoy your summer.

[bluecross]

you should apologize to some of us for saying we are evil.

Only Satan is evil, but we are all sinners. Only the Father is good.

The Bishop of Mostar was described as sending 'bombardment' a rather inflammatory word, don't you think?

Show me where I said that, please.

[maryannlucy]

just to answer.....

" Remember the local bishop fired off through his diocesan website a week before the Pope’s envoy was due to arrive in Medjugorje.

When the propaganda push from Mostar against Medjugorje starts to ramp up, know that the bishop is unhappy at what he knows is coming down the line.

I expect he wasn’t too pleased either to hear that Cardinal Müller’s position as Prefect of the CDF was being given to a Jesuit."


Blessings to you and yours, in the peace of Christ, Mary

[bluecross]

Thank you for the blessing.

I knew you wouldn't be able to find the words you attempted to put into my mouth as the 'bombardment' was published on a local portal. I did not say it came from the bishop, but he has published his personal opinion on his diocesan website and the 'bombardment' reflects his views.

The bombardment reference was also meant echo the terrible siege Mostar was put under during the Balkan conflict. Medjugorje also came under attack during this period but not in the way Mostar did.

IT is ironic that the attacks continue on Medjugorje and from a city that suffered so much during the conflict. THe devil never rests.

Peace and enjoy your summer.

[stunnedbyit]

Do I hear a gear shift to reverse?

[.

To regard someone as having strengths AND weaknesses is not going into reverse

Have a good summer BC

[ActionReq]

16 These six hath Jehovah hated, Yea, seven [are] abominations to His soul.
17 Eyes high -- tongues false -- And hands shedding innocent blood --
18 A heart devising thoughts of vanity -- Feet hasting to run to evil --
19 A false witness [who] doth breathe out lies -- And one sending forth contentions between brethren.

These are the things that my
Lord does not want you to
say or think. Further He
loves you to use your brain.
Its all in the intentions.
So as somebody mentioned
that discords are brought up
here to set people up against
each other or to ventilate
bias against Francis, yes that
is what is called an abomination.
So if somebody has that intention
or subconsciously has that intention
then that would be an abomination.

[Prodigals]

So if somebody has that intention [to bring discord to the Church] or subconsciously has that intention then that would be an abomination.

Very true, ar.

But what if someone's intentions are pure? Is it still an abomination? Are they still evil?

[Prodigals]

Only the Father is good.

You left out the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Prodigals]

To regard someone as having strengths AND weaknesses is not going into reverse

Go ahead and boast of your weaknesses, sbi, for power is made perfect in weakness.

" . . for when I am weak, then I am strong"

[bluecross]

I guess by now you all know that Cardinal Müller refutes the report of his meeting published by 1P2

http://www.the-tidings.com/articles/car ... -with-pope

Go ahead and boast of your weaknesses, sbi, for power is made perfect in weakness.

Except that SBI wasn’t pointing to his own weaknesses but referring to Pope Francis.

But I concur with you that Pope Francis is made perfect in weakness.

Peace and enjoy your summer.

[stunnedbyit]

My own weaknesses.. how long do you have guys?

The Mueller story seemed cast iron but obviously wasn't. In future I'll wait for controversies to mature and play out before giving an opinion!

[ActionReq]

So if somebody has that intention [to bring discord to the Church] or subconsciously has that intention then that would be an abomination.

Very true, ar.

But what if someone's intentions are pure? Is it still an abomination? Are they still evil?

If the intention is pure and the
act is a sin, then for God it is
still an abomination. However
for this person, even for God,
morally it is probably in order.
By any means the book of Job
teaches us that God already
knows if a person is evil
biased. Even if he is innocently
killing people, supposedly for
the good of the country.
Only for us who don't know,
and are jealous, we say to
someone: Yeah of course
you abide by the law. I would
do the same if I had all that
money and possessions.

Suppose you are a soldier and
sniper on the roof, witnessing
a hijack of a preschool.
The hijacker says: If you don't
do as I say, in one half an hour
I will start killing a kid every
10 minutes, until you do as I
say. 30 minutes later he throws
a dead kid outof the window.
Ten minutes later another and
so on for the next 30 minutes.
Then at once you have a clear
view at the killer.
If you kill him, then you will
"save" many lives. But then
you killed somebody and you
have blood on your hands.

I tell you that whenever you
kill this killer, you will be held
responsible for killing in your
day of judgement for having
transgressed a capital sin.
And whenever you decide not
to pull the trigger, then the
innocent blood of these kids
will be required from your hand.

Not because God wants it that
way, but because morality
is a mechanism of the soul.

[Maryh]

Not because God wants it that
way, but because morality
is a mechanism of the soul.

Sometimes it seems that even Christianity has its limitations. Personally speaking, Can i always love my neighbour for example?
Welcome the stranger despite risks to my personal safety. Don't think so.
Can i always turn the other cheek but if i do so, would that amount to a cover up and being complicit in a crime?
Should you not just be merciful and not seek justice?
Should i not just forgive the sinner even if its a crime?
Why does the church engage in ex-communication when they're to act like Jesus who doesn't turn anyone away?
It's confusing to me. I don't find the answers to any of these too readily available.

There's never enough discussions as to the morality of hard situations at times.
Is there answers that can be found within the christian context? I would like to think so.
Christianity can be so misused as well by people who always want to be in control.

[ActionReq]

Not because God wants it that
way, but because morality
is a mechanism of the soul.

Should you not just be merciful and not seek justice?
Should i not just forgive the sinner even if its a crime?

This says it all:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I shall interpret it for you.
How to apply justice and mercy all the time?
How to put into practice the
greatest commandment?
1-You apply mercy to others always.
2-You apply justice to yourself always.


It is that simple!



Isn't that simple?




No it isn't!

[Prodigals]

Can i always love my neighbour for example?

Yes. We must do so as it is a core tenet of our Christian faith. It is not an emotional love, but rather a decision of our will.

Matthew says it in his Gospel:
"But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

We must love them, even when sometimes they are unlovable. Easy? Not on your life.

And you ask 'Should i not just forgive the sinner even if its a crime?'
The answer is in the perfect prayer He taught us: "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
Forgiveness is never a crime. If it is, then Christ Himself committed the biggest one of all time when he was nailed to His cross. Historians tells us that crucified men always hurled vile curses at all, even their own mothers, so that in some cases it was necessary to cut out their tongues to silence them.

Not so with the One whom we are called to emulate. "Father, forgive them . . . "

[Maryh]

I read somewhere lately that we all tend to judge ourselves by our best intentions rather than our actions, but
judge others by their actions alone.

1-You apply mercy to others always.
2-You apply justice to yourself always.

So that sounds like a better way of doing business Actionreq. I think some people need to have more mercy for themselves too,
as some people are their own worst enemy and I think this grieves the heart of God also.

It is not an emotional love, but rather a decision of our will.

Matthew says it in his Gospel:
"But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

This is really helpful to remember Prodigals; So we can choose the correct action, no matter how we feel!
I think a priest once told me this but i forgot it again. Thanks for reminding me.
Its' putting it into practice
which i find challenging & where i'm more aware of my limitations.

Honestly, sometimes i get bogged down by the thought that my christian 'love' does not go far enough.
Then i read some parts of the bible like this one...

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”


I mean how is this to be understood? Wouldn't you be assuming a very 'holy-er than thou' attitude if you were to apply this to people in your life? "Not even to eat with such a one". This is shunning people.
I don't know how to square this out with 'love your neighbour'.
Now i'm asking myself 'who is my neighbour'?
May as well find myself a cave in the dessert! Life could be easier!

[maryannlucy]

There is a great website called Biblehub that actually shows commentary on each passage of the bible. I do believe the commentaries are from Christian pastors, not Catholic Christian, but Christian. I looked up the bible verse that you posted, Mary h and I am going to paste Ellicott's Commentary on this passage.


Ellicott's Commentary "This is a limitation and explanation of the command given not to associate with fornicators. It would have been almost impossible for the command to be literally obeyed without the Christian withdrawing altogether from the business of life, so the Apostle explains that it is the fair fame and purity of the Church which he is anxious to preserve. There are so many fornicators, and covetous, and idolaters in this world (i.e., the heathen world) that men must meet with them. But the Christian must tolerate no such sins among themselves; they must exclude from the social circle any brother who, bearing the name of Christ, indulges in the vices of the heathen world. The Church is to be the light of the world, and not the recipient of the world’s darkness.

But what I meant was that you were not to associate with a Christian guilty of these things. It may seem strange that the word “idolater” should be included in this category; for in what sense could a “brother” be a worshipper of idols? It is probable that the word “idolater” has involved in it the idea, not merely of worshipping an image, but of the sensuality which accompanied various forms of heathen worship, and of which evidently some of the Corinthian brethren were partakers. (See Ephesians 5:5, and Colossians 3:5, where “idolatry” is identified with a vice kindred to lasciviousness.) God will judge. He is the judge of the whole earth; we are to leave the heathen world in His hands. The Apostle at once explains the grounds of the limitation of his remarks to Christians, and seems to hint also, by the form of expression here, that the Corinthian Church ought to have been able to have understood his remarks as only applicable to themselves and not to the heathen."

[Prodigals]

I mean how is this to be understood? Wouldn't you be assuming a very 'holy-er than thou' attitude if you were to apply this to people in your life? "Not even to eat with such a one". This is shunning people.
I don't know how to square this out with 'love your neighbour'.
Now i'm asking myself 'who is my neighbour'?
May as well find myself a cave in the dessert! Life could be easier!

To extract meaning from scripture writings such as this, it is always important to understand the context in which they were originally written.

In this case, St. Paul was trying to hold together the fledgling Christian community he had founded in Corinth, which was a hotbed of pagan cults. And like any larger urban place it had an abundance of moral depravity. His letter to them containing the passage you quoted was necessary because the new Christian community of Corinth was going off the rails in many respects, and many of the faithful had returned to their former immoral ways, departing from the true teachings of Jesus Christ. Paul's letter called them to task over their ills, and he passes judgement on some very specific bad things that were going on in Corinth.

Paul was dealing with a bunch of Christian newbies, recently converted to Christianity by Paul, and then left entirely on their own in a town that had a reputation for all kinds of immorality, who were supposed to run the new 'church' Paul left them with. The task was too much for them, and they were failing badly. Small wonder that Paul's medicine to them was to tell them to stay away for anyone or anything that would lure them back into their old ways.

For the weak Corinthians, he had to order this 'withdrawal', which to our eyes seems like they were told to 'shun' people, and exhibit a 'holier-than-thou' attitude. For us, whose faith hopefully is much more solid, we can walk through the immorality we see all around us in our daily lives, and we can walk among it and have contact with those whom Christ calls on us to evangelize without fearing that we will be lured away from our faith (as was happening to the Corinthians).

Don't confuse Paul's warning to the weak collapsing Corinthians not to associate with immoral people with your obligation to love them. To preach His Gospel as we are called to do, we must interface with the heathen, even if we find their behavior immoral in some aspect. In today's modern world, we cannot avoid them (unless you actually do live in a cave somewhere). Even if they are not 'our kind of people', we must intellectually love them as our brothers and sisters, no matter how abominable we may find them, no matter how 'un-lovable' we find them.

Christ's teaching to us is clear. They are all our 'neighbors'. We must hate their sin, but love the sinner.

[ActionReq]

It is not an emotional love, but rather a decision of our will.

So we can choose the correct action, no matter how we feel!

I am sorry.
Feign love is the answer?
That doesn't sound like my Jesus.
My Jesus would never ever feign
anything. Why would you do that
then?
Unless of course you don't know
what true love really is, and that
I had tried to explain some topics
ago. Because if you feign, then
people will always notice you feign.
But when you know what true love
is then you can love without
feigning.

Applying mercy to others always.
Applying justice to yourself always.
That does work among brethren
who all think and act with that
same conviction in mind.

Same thing for: whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek,
turn to him the other also.

Not so in the realistic world,
because the world will smite you.

But hey as followers of Jesus we are
not from this world or are ye?

Because if you are, then you adapt
your actions to this world and you
reason: That is not realistic to think
or do, and you act according to this
world, and indeed you get things
done in this world. However
remember that everything that you
get done in the way of this world
will one day be undone by this world.

Heaven is an unrealistic place for
our worldly standards.
Even so to be able to understand
and to become not of this world
you must first live this world by
the standards of this world to be
able to judge, not to wanting to
be part of it. And then you start
to want to establish the reign of
the heavens on this world.
You will be killed in that attempt.
Unless you manage to change
the standards first.

[Prodigals]

You misunderstand the difference between like and love.

In a human sense, its easy to love people who return that love to you. That mechanism is merely the love of biological human nature - the temporary human vessel that we inhabit during our time on Earth.

There are many completely unlikable people in this life who are vicious, vindictive, violent, who trigger natural human feelings of disgust or strong negative emotions within us. These are people whom it is impossible to "like". That's what Christ meant when he called them "the least of my brothers". These are not just 'good' people who are dirt poor and have absolutely nothing. These are the worst of human nature - the least.

When Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself", He didn't say "like" them.

It is the higher spiritual love of our brother that Our Lord calls us to - not the lower human 'liking' of them. To achieve this, our flawed human nature must have the Christ-like grace to see beyond the unattractiveness of others like this. Though they are unlovable in a human nature sense, the spiritual being that we are must see what is invisible to the human eye and recognize them as our brothers and sisters in the family of God. And we must make an intellectual decision - a decision of our will - to love them for no other reason than they are God's children and therefore worthy of our love. Its got nothing to do with human biological love.

At the Last Supper, Christ knew the lack of love in Judas heart, and the terrible betrayal he planned. And yet He washed the man's feet. True love is desiring the absolute best for another, even if the other has no true love of you. Isn't that exactly the love Our Lord demonstrated when He willingly went to His cross - not just for the good, but even for the Judases among us?

[ActionReq]

You misunderstand the difference between like and love.

I do what?

[ActionReq]

Prodigals I can see you study theology
and answer from what you are learning.
Love is and what isn't is confusion
abound nobody seems know or
everybody think know what is for
him or her, choose your definition.
Look video. <click>