Medjugorje Forum

I’ve checked online and from what I’ve seen Fr. Petar Ljubicic is roughly 73 years old (born in 1946).
The average lifespan for a male in Bosnia is roughly 74-75 years old. Even if he lives til his mid-80’s, doesn’t that mean that the secrets are close to being realized?
He’s the priest who is supposed to announce to the world the secrets and he can only do so if he’s alive. I’m only assuming that because I have not read if there is a backup priest in case of his death or other circumstance that would prevent him from accomplishing this.
I’m still on the fence with concern to the apparition and will accept the good and leave the rest and follow the official stance of the Church.
I was just thinking from a mere numbers stand point --- it would have to be close (within 10-15 years or so).

Is my thinking off?

Thanks,

Roetting wrote: Is my thinking off?

It is logical human thinking.
Just remember that all things are possible with God.

Fr Ljubicic won’t be announcing any of the so-called Medjugorje “secrets” to the world.

Neither will any other priest on Mirjana’s behalf.

Just my opinion.

bluecross,

I want to understand more about the opinion you stated. Why do you think that no priest will be announcing any of the secrets?
I am honestly curious and am not asking out of any sort of arrogance. I certainly have not kept up with all things Medjugorje over the years. I believe I read years ago that the secrets, when they begin, would be communicated to a priest and then that priest would fast and pray for a certain amount of time before announcing them to the world. Has the situation around this changed? Has Mirjana changed her mind?
I truly am curious and I'm sorry if I've missed something.

Respectfully,

Obedience is often a word mentioned in Medjugorje discussions… obedience to the local bishop… obedience to the Church… even obedience to Our Lady.

In Fr Petar’s situation, where does his obedience lie in regard to the Medjugorje phenomenon… Obedience to his superiors, obedience to the Church, obedience to Our Lady… or obedience to Mirjana?

We know that in recent years the six visionaries have been restricted in giving witness to the Medjugorje phenomenon outside of the parish. The directive to bishops around the world came from the office of the CDF.

Pope Francis has expressed a personal doubt about the ongoing appartions at Medjugorje. Very recently, Fr Marinko Šakota, pastor of Medjugorje, met with Pope Francis who urged him to be obedient to Msgr Henryk Hoser, his Apostolic Visitor at Medjugorje. Fr Šakota said he understood this to mean that being obedient to Msgr Hoser was like listening to Pope Francis, listening to the Church, and that contrary to this, if you are not obedient to Msgr Hoser you are not obedient to Pope Francis, and not obedient to the Church!

So let us suppose that in the light of the restrictions placed on the visionaries there may also be restrictions placed on the priests associated with Medjugorje, or at least a change of emphasis in their engagement with the visionaries and promotion of the Medjugorje phenomenon. Let us suppose that Fr Petar may have been advised by his Franciscan superiors to “step back” from his role in promoting the secrets in the light that the Pope has still to officially pronounce on the final outcome of the findings of the Medjugorje Commission.

Who should he be obedient to?

Let’s not forget that it was another Franciscan priest associated with Medjugorje and the visionaries, the now-laicised Fr Tomislav Vlasic, who wrote a letter to Pope John Paul II saying that the Medjugorje apparitions were the last time Our Lady would appear on Earth. He explained that this was told to him by Mirjana.

This letter was published in several books and Medjugorje followers started to push and promote this claim far and wide. Some still believe this to be the truth.

However, much later, Marijana fed another line as an explanation, saying three words had been missed off the statement – “in this way”.

Obviously, the statement could now be understood in in a different light.

I guess, like all of us, visionaries and even priests are not infallible, and discernment is called for, when messages are hijacked and twirled to suit the agendas of others. And what may appear to be good or ‘revealing’ isn’t always the case. Our curiosity and wanting to know future events can lead us down many uncertain and dangerous paths.

bluecross,
Thank you for your explanation. It was very thorough and clear. I totally agree with everything you laid out.
I think too many forget that there needs to be obedience to the Church and not obedient to what an apparition (which has not been officially recognized by the Church) has to say.
Thank you for your response.

Respectfully,

I do find BC's post rather extraordinary although not surprising because he has frequently suggested he had some problems with the monthly messages being given by Mirjana. But now he seems to be putting into our minds that there might be problems with Fr Petar also!

Fr Petar will be quite free to convey to the world any secret given to him by Mirjana, without any questions about disobedience arising. Bringing up the case of Fr Vlasic is both irrelevant and misleading.

And BC now tells us Mirjana has "fed us another line" when she clarified what she had told Fr Vlasic many years ago about the uniqueness of the Medjugorje apparitions. I find Mirjana consistently open and humble in what she tells us of her experiences and I feel the same way about Fr Petar.

Roetting... Pope Francis would not discourage you from going on pilgrimage to Medjugorje, whatever your thoughts about the apparitions and messages.

The Pope was happy enough to send his representative Henry Hoser there, ‘recognising’ that there are very special graces given to those who go there with an open mind and an open heart.

The fact that so many pilgrims reconcile with God and return to the Sacraments is not a sign to be ignored, but a wonderful witness to the action of the Holy Spirit. Medjugorje is a perpetual Pentecost.

It was the witness of the disciples at Pentecost that brought about so many conversions at the time, not the words or presence of Mary. She points to Christ, not herself.

Mary said to the angel, “But how can this come about, since I am a virgin?” “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” the angel answered “and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow.”

It is the action of the Holy Spirit that prompts people to repent and want confess their sins so as to reconcile with God. Little wonder then that Medjugorje is known as “the confessional of the world”.

Thou shalt know him when he comes
Not by any din or drums
Nor by the vantage of his airs
Nor by anything he wears
Neither by his crown
Nor his gown
For his presence known shall be
By the holy harmony
That his coming makes in thee.

Anon.

John...

But now he seems to be putting into our minds that there might be problems with Fr Petar also!

No problems with Fr Petar.

Mirjana is on record as saying that if the Pope asked her to give him the “secrets” to announce, she would do so.

The choice belongs to Mirjana. But according to her, the decision as to when she can reveal the “secrets” is down to the Blessed Mother.

My opinion is that neither Pope nor Petar will ever announce the “secrets”.

Well, I'm in agreement with BC in not anticipating the Pope announcing the secrets but I feel fairly sure that Fr Petar will carry out the task as he has been requested.

But I want to take the opportunity of mentioning again what Pope Francis said about Medjugorje last year and which has not been too widely reported, partly because the reports are largely in Italian.

Chiara Amirante, the founder of 'New Horizons', was able to speak with Pope Francis about Medjugorje late last year.

• I went to talk to him, because I understood that voices that were going around in the Vatican on Medjugorje were a bit out of order because there were few Vatican people who came here so they get so much news that is not true. This is news that goes around I do not know since and that made Pope Francis think that it was true that Our Lady gave different appointments every day, to different seers, to say different things. "No, Father, it is not really like that, in the sense that in reality the messages are 682 to today". There is that of 25 and then that of day 2. So I understand that if they let you know that Our Lady says every minute: "Now I give a message here and then a message there", this can give a bit 'of perplexity.
  
  He told me these positive things about Medjugorje. It is already a year that we have heard about the misunderstandings that exist on Medjugorje. So I already knew all that he had done. But he told me: 'Chiara, look, it is I who saved Medjugorje, because the Commission of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, on the basis of so much false news, had already said that Medjugorje is all false. So I saved Medjugorje myself, it is I who have Medjugorje at heart, it is I who sent Hoser because I believe, what I also said at the press conference, that the fruits are many and are unequivocal' .
  
  "I have the Pope's blessing to be able to say so", explained Amirante, adding that before the meeting she was "left with great sorrow for what he had said about the Madonna", that "this Madonna is not the Mother of Jesus" .

I have used Google translate to extract the above from this Italian website:
http://www.farodiroma.it/medjugorje-chi ... -salvarla/

Quote:
Thou shalt know him when he comes
Not by any din or drums
Nor by the vantage of his airs
Nor by anything he wears
Neither by his crown
Nor his gown
For his presence known shall be
By the holy harmony
That his coming makes in thee.

Anon.

And John having heard in the prison the works of the Christ, having sent two of his disciples, said to him, `Art thou He who is coming, or for another do we look?' And Jesus answering said to them, `Having gone, declare to John the things that ye hear and see, blind receive sight, and lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear, dead are raised, and poor have good news proclaimed, and happy is he who may not be stumbled in me.'

(Matthew)

Just do not believe anything less.
The blind will see, not a blind will see.
The lame will walk, not a lame will walk.
Deaf will hear, not a deaf will hear.
The dead will rise, not a dead will rise

Here is a paragraph from the book My Heart Will Triumph page 327 written by Mirjana Soldo with the help of Miki Musa and Sean Bloomfield. It lays out in general terms, the sequence of what to expect.

At this moment, according to Our Lady, we are living in a time of grace. After this will come the time of the secrets, and the time of the triumph. God-willing, you will hear from me then. Of course, there's no guarantee that I will be alive when the secrets are revealed.... Then Mirjana went on to tell of a time when she was flying on a trip to the U.S. with her husband and friends. As they were a little nervous about flying, one friend said that there was no need to worry because Mirjana was with them and since she had the secrets, they wouldn't die. She informed them that she has the secrets written, which means she doesn't have to be alive when they are revealed. She said that when the time comes, those who need to read the parchment upon which is written the secrets will be able to.
Another paragraph on the top of page 328
It's possible you're reading this book after the secrets have been revealed, but if not-if the events foretold by Our Lady have yet to take place and the permanent sign has yet to appear - then I urge you not to wait. Abandon yourselves to God today.

and page 329
When I visit with the other visionaries, we might talk about our families or our missions, but we never discuss the secrets. The six of us do not even know if all the secrets we've been given are the same. Some people wonder why there are secrets at all, but it was not Our Lady who decided to have it this way. Everything will happen according to God's will, not mine. People used to ask me why I did not chose Fr. Slavko to reveal the secrets. He was Marko's (her husband's) uncle, after all, and we became quite close to him. But Father Slavko died (in 2000). God's plan always supersedes our own.

At this moment, according to Our Lady, we are living in a time of grace. After this will come the time of the secrets, and the time of the triumph. God-willing, you will hear from me then. Of course, there's no guarantee that I will be alive when the secrets are revealed.... Then Mirjana went on to tell of a time when she was flying on a trip to the U.S. with her husband and friends. As they were a little nervous about flying, one friend said that there was no need to worry because Mirjana was with them and since she had the secrets, they wouldn't die. She informed them that she has the secrets written, which means she doesn't have to be alive when they are revealed. She said that when the time comes, those who need to read the parchment upon which is written the secrets will be able to.
Another paragraph on the top of page 328
It's possible you're reading this book after the secrets have been revealed, but if not-if the events foretold by Our Lady have yet to take place and the permanent sign has yet to appear - then I urge you not to wait. Abandon yourselves to God today.

Another example of Mirjana moving the goalposts…

Initially Mirjana claimed she would reveal the “secrets”, one by one, to a priest of her choice, Fr Petar, and that the “secrets” had been presented to her on a piece of parchment, not of this world, and could not be read by anyone except by the priest she had chosen, and only one secret at a time when they were due to be disclosed. Fr Petar would then announce this to the world some days before the event occurred.

No we learn that Mirjana may be dead and gone, (presumably also Fr Petar), and “those who read the parchment upon which is written the secrets will be able to do so.” Will another visionary be assigned to announce the secrets, and if not, then who?

Not forgetting that Mirjana has also said she would be prepared to reveal the secrets to the Pope if he asked her.

The goalposts were first moved when Mirjana later amplified the message about “the last apparitions” she gave to Fr Tomislav Vlasic (who also passed it on to the Pope at the time).

But the classic move was when she announced that Our Lady had told her she would no longer appear to her on a regular basis, except for once a year for the rest of her life. As Mirjana explains, a woman is allowed to change her mind, and sometime after that she starts seeing Our Lady on a regular basis again, every month with a “message for the world” (as Sr Emmanuel likes to put it), just a week after Our Lady has given Marija her monthly “message for the world”.

Over the years, observers and even the Church, were prepared to wait and see if Mirjana delivered on her word about being chosen to announce the “secrets”. Now, it seems she has come up with a get-out scenario saying that she may not be alive to announce the “secrets”, meaning no one can point the finger and doubt her claim. It’s a variation on the claim that “a woman is allowed to change her mind”.

Or, as I prefer to see it, just another example of moving the goalsposts.

I am really sad to see BC pursuing this negative approach to Mirjana and feel a duty to respond.

BC says:

Now we learn that Mirjana may be dead and gone, (presumably also Fr Petar), and “those who read the parchment upon which is written the secrets will be able to do so.” Will another visionary be assigned to announce the secrets, and if not, then who?

And so because Mirjana did not include the ever present possibility that future events can always change due to unexpected deaths in her statements, then we are supposed to view what she has said negatively! Are we supposed to add "unless I die" to every statement we make to friends and family about our plans for next week or next year or longer??? Should Mirjana have consulted a lawyer to construct a legal statement about what she had been asked to do by Our Lady?

With rather more reason, BC points out that when Mirjana received the tenth secret she was told that she would no longer have daily apparitions but would only have an apparition on her birthday as well in difficult moments of her life. So BC feels it very suspicious that Our Lady should choose to appear to Mirjana once a month. I'm sorry that BC feels that way but I find it very believable that Our Lady would see Mijana's sufferings and support her with the monthly apparitions. As Mirjana said back in 1986, "I am not speaking of the ordinary problems of my life. My difficult moments stem from the secrets concerning the future of the world, which Our Lady revealed to me. At times, I can hardly cope with it when I seriously think of it. In those moments, Our Lady appears and gives me strength and courage to go on with my life."

BC says:

Over the years, observers and even the Church, were prepared to wait and see if Mirjana delivered on her word about being chosen to announce the “secrets”.

Fortunately, most Medjugorje lovers are more than prepared to wait for Mirjana to respond to Our Lady's requests when the time comes.
.

Are we supposed to add "unless I die" to every statement we make to friends and family about our plans for next week or next year or longer???

The caveat I grew up with was “God-willing”. It was a wonderful way of acknowledging God and introducing his name in a conversation.

I tend to view it more like God moves the goalposts. He moves them according to His will and we even though it is very difficult, we must accept, love, and keep going no matter how far away the goalposts have been placed. He did warn us that the bridegroom would be late to the wedding but to keep watch for Him.

The only thing I think of with Fr Petar in this respect is that I believe when Mirjana was asked to choose someone, she knew when the dates would be for the secrets to unfold (correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is the case). So it stands to reason she would choose someone who would be at an age to carry out announcing the secrets.

In that respect, it provides a hint that these would happen within a certain timeframe.

That said, to BC's point, things can always change.

maryannlucy wrote:

I tend to view it more like God moves the goalposts

gtc wrote:

...things can always change

I am mindful of Jonah’s experience...

He preached: “Only forty days more and Nineveh is going to be destroyed.”

The king of Nineveh issued a decree for the people to repent and renounce their evil behaviour and said: “Who knows if God will not change his mind and relent, if he will not renounce his burning wrath so that we do not perish?” God saw their efforts and relented.

Jonah was indignant at this; he fell into a rage. (he knew from the outset of God’s compassionate and merciful heart).

God answered: “Am I not to feel sorry for Nineveh [...] for the people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, to say nothing of the animals?”

bluecross wrote: Another example of Mirjana moving the goalposts…

Hi much of this is down to errors in translation (often across a number of languages) and hearsay ?

I think Mirjana may often be relying on people to translate for her. These people might be volunteering and it's possible that not all have been certified as translators. Even if they have been certified mistakes can happen.

bluecross wrote:maryannlucy wrote:

I tend to view it more like God moves the goalposts

gtc wrote:

...things can always change

I am mindful of Jonah’s experience...

So with this in mind, then in
the case of the current situation
with Medjugorje. In your opinion--
who is the Jonah equivalent?
Who is the king of nineveh equivalent?
Who is the people of nineveh equivalent?

Who enrages in the end?

The point I was making is that there are examples in the bible where God can be seen to “move the goalposts”, change the paremeters or even change his mind. But all these situations can be understood as expressions of God’s infinite mercy. It’s no secret that faith can “move mountains”.

bluecross wrote: God answered: “Am I not to feel sorry for Nineveh [...] for the people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, to say nothing of the animals?”

Let's hope and pray that God will be moved to abundantly show infinite mercy to all.

gtc wrote: In that respect, it provides a hint that these would happen within a certain timeframe.

This would be my logic as well. Given the information that we have, I think it is natural to speculate as to when events might occur. But I guess that we should be mindful (and hopeful maybe of shifting goalposts).

bluecross wrote:

Are we supposed to add "unless I die" to every statement we make to friends and family about our plans for next week or next year or longer???

The caveat I grew up with was “God-willing”. It was a wonderful way of acknowledging God and introducing his name in a conversation.

I try to add God-forbid to conversations for the same reason.

Down through the ages we have had prophets or messengers that attempted to describe encounters with God or Our Lady. The image of divine mercy is an attempt to portray the beauty of what Saint Faustina saw. I think the two paragraph's below are interesting, although I am not sure if they can be applied to the Medjugorje messages or secrets because they are supposed to have been written verbatim.

Many different versions of this image have been painted, but our Lord made it clear that the painting itself is not what is important. When St. Faustina first saw the original image that was being painted under her direction, she wept in disappointment and complained to Jesus: "Who will paint You as beautiful as You are?" (313).

In answer, she heard these words: "Not in the beauty of the color, nor of the brush lies the greatness of this image, but in My grace" (313).

(source of last two paragraphs) https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message/ ... /image.php

"Not in the beauty of the color, nor of the brush lies the greatness of this image, but in My grace" (313).

Life is pure gift.