Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

Moderators: TimHaley, MedjAdmin, Management

Holy Catholic Church, will you obey?

yes
22
96%
no
1
4%
maybe
No votes
0%
By jpinto
#29361
I was wondering... If the Holy Catholic Church say "don't spread medjugorje", will you obey?

What is your opinion?


Note: this post is the same as in "apparitions, ..." but with a poll, and probably is more suitable posted here.
User avatar
By Ger
#29364
Of course I will obey jpinto - I've voted Yes.

Until then, as I understand the Church's position, I am free to visit Medjugorje and spread the messages.

If the Church suddenly announces, do not visit Medjugorje and do not spread the messages I will obey, and pray for the ban to be lifted.

We who believe in Medjugorje are not disobedient jpinto.

Ger
By jpinto
#29365
Hmm... let me make it more clear, because you did wrote that you would "...pray for the ban to be lifted."

Now, let us assume that the Holy Catholic Church would say that Medjugorje is explicitly evil.
Would you still pray for the ban to be lifted?

(This is really a wild assumption, as The Church usually doesn't make public the bases about 'private revelations' decisions).

I'm really asking about full obedience.
So.. would you?
User avatar
By Ger
#29368
Well as you said yourself jpinto, it's so improbable it's hard to imagine.

Let's be clear: the Pope rules ex cathedra that the visions of Medjugorje are evil.

Then I will obey!

Ger
By jpinto
#29370
A small note: what i wrote that you say is "improbable" was about The Church publishing the bases of a decision.

Back to the question....

Ex cathedra is a different thing. I didn't wrote about that.

I don't think it ever happened an Ex cathedra in a matter of private revelation, and it never will. Ex cathedra is about dogmatic subjects.

I also noted that you wrote "Then I will obey". So without an Ex cathedra you won't obey? (You know that doesn't happen).

So.. will you?
User avatar
By Ger
#29371
LOL jpinto! you're a gas.

Suppose you write the scenario for me, so I can reply?

for instance, our local Ordinary and priests assure us we are free to travel to Medjugorje at the moment; that they cannot lead these pilgrimages, but accompany us.

Please outline for me where the Magisterium of the Church will change the ruling and in what manner (since you chose an improbable one :lol: ) so I can reply.

Ger
User avatar
By bluecross
#29372
jpinto... This is a hypothetical question and does not need to be addressed.

Others... And don’t be surprised if another question follows. In my opinion, I sense that this type of question is a ‘leading’ qustion designed to trap in an attempt to prove a point. Already jpinto has responded twice in an attempt to enage Ger.

jpinto signed onto the forum on Jan 17. I wonder why? :)

Reminds me of the questions about the ‘law’ put to Jesus by the Pharisees?

Interestingly, all of this week’s Mass readings are built around priesthood. the Pharisees, Jesus and His disciples – and well worth reading to understand how Jesus handled these sort of questions from the Pharisees, a priestly people.

Jesus talks about fresh skins and new wine, the sabbath being made for man... It becomes very clear that Jesus has arrived to establish a church, not only with all the authority of the Father, but a church based on love. He had come to fulfil the law because on its own the law is not enough. Love is also neccessary. Jesus called His own priests, the apostles – he had the authority to do so – because the hearts of the priestly Pharisees were closed and didn’t want the new teaching of Jesus.

Interestingly, St Paul was a Pharisee, and look at the way he acted against the followers of Jesus until he saw the light – the love of God. Didn’t St Paul go to write about how love is patient, love is kind...?
Last edited by bluecross on Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
By jpinto
#29374
I joined on Jan 17, because i found about the forum today. Should i wait more time to be able to post?
Another thing about one being holy or wiser. You may look at me as the biggest sinner writing at this forum, as it might be true. I only look for the mercy of our Lord. But there is only one truth, not many.

Back to the question, let's try to focus.

Why do people should have such a hard time about saying "I obey The Holy Catholic Church independently of private revelations, no matter what"?

Is it wrong to say "i'll obey to The Church, even if Mary appears to me and say that i shouldn't obey"? (You know that woudn't be Mary, right?)

So.. what's the big deal about answering this simply? If you that are probably far more holy then me can't obey The Church, how can one be Holy then?

Please accept the question simply as if not came from me, but put the question to yourself. And answer it to yourself. That's what i'm interested in.

47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Matthew 12:47-49


So.. will you obey?
User avatar
By bluecross
#29377
So.. what's the big deal about answering this simply?
jpinto... And I could ask, what’s the big deal in asking the question in the first place?
Please accept the question simply as if not came from me
If the question doesn’t come from you, who does it come from?
User avatar
By Ger
#29380
Well I have twice answered your question jpinto, so now it's my turn!

Suppose the Magisterium rules in Medjugorje's favour and requires the faithful to believe in it?

Please don't say you can't answer that because the Church never rules in this manner on private revelations - you required me to give a straight answer to the same improbable circumstances, and I did.

Ger
User avatar
By Pippy
#29383
Jpinto...the big deal comes with looking at your other postings on some of the other threads. You've already then "tainted" this survey with your opinion from the other postings. Thus, it is not objective but rather a subjective poll.

Pippy
User avatar
By Sirach1717
#29389
Hello,

May I be so bold as to ask if "YOU" believe in Medjugorje?

Blessings,

Mary
User avatar
By unclealex
#29391
Private revelations are not the official concern of the Extraordinary Magesterium
of the Church, so do not anticipate an 'ex cathedra' proclamation by a pope on the
supernatural events surrounding Medjugorje. Church approval or disapproval
rests with the Ordinary Temporal Authority, in this case the Bishop of Mostar. And
his judgment is fallible. So there is no point in responding to such a poll as this one:
Sorry, no comment. :wink:

Considering the response of the sensus fidelium, which includes the numerous believers
among bishops and clergy from around the world, it appears that Medjugorje has already
obtained full Church approval, notwithstanding the opposition of one diocesan bishop. The
Vatican has not told us officially that it is okay to go to Medjugorje, and the Holy See has not
told us that it is wrong to go. If the apparitions are somehow exposed as fake, then I'll stop going
without anyone telling me not to go. Rome could still remain silent.
Now, that was a comment, I think. :wink:
By Steven
#29399
jpinto,

I try to live in the present. Today, the Catholic Church has not discouraged pilgrams from going to Medjugorje. In fact, our former Pontif said, if Medjugorje brings people to prayer, let them go.

I appreciate your skepticism though and your apparent desire to protect the faithful. But I can assure you that most of us who go there, go with an open mind with eyes wide opened. Personally, I did not go there because I was willing to gamble my faith away. I went there to see for myself. The fruits of Medjugorje are there for anyone willing to recieve them.

I don't know if you have been to Medjugorje or if you will ever go. But if you have not been there, I might suggest that your skeptism may be relieved if you take the leap of faith and go. Otherwise, your present stand on Medjugorje may be nothing short of contempt prior to investigation.

Steven
By David S.
#29409
Here's a question: Why would the Church condemn Medjugorje?????
User avatar
By TotusTuus
#29413
jpinto,

It appears you are bent on proving that the loyalties of Medjugorje supporters are with the apparitions before the Church. This is a false dichotomy as there is no opposition between Our Lady and her Son (and His Body, the Church). In fact, Our Lady encourages us to draw ever nearer to her Son with the bonds of faith, hope and love.

Let me propose a hypothetical for you (as I know you are interested in genuine dialog and not cynical traps):

If Our Blessed Mother appeared to you with a peace plan from heaven and a warning that there are serious chastisements pending if the world doesn't respond, and asking you to spread her messages - would you? What if it would cost you the ridicule of your friends and the hostility of the world?

If, indeed as Pope John Paul said that Medjugorje is the continuation of Fatima, don't we have a responsibility to respond and spread our Blessed Mother's peace plan?
User avatar
By unclealex
#29418
Jpinto, I too appreciate your honest, critical approach towards the private revelations
of Medjugorje; it's more prudent than a rashly sentimental approach that often leads
to superstition and the formation of minority cults within the Catholic Church. Indeed,
there are presently over sixty dubious and disapproved claims to private revelations in the
Catholic Church today. The supernatural events of Medjugorje have been dismissed by the
Bishop of Mostar, but the claims of the visionaries, the contents of the messages they
have received, the scientific investigations, and the response of the universal Church
indicate that these revelations are highly reliable and will most likely be fully approved by
the Church in time, along the same path as Lourdes and Fatima, for example, in modern
and contemporary time.

Please note that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was infallibly proclaimed by Pius lX
on 8 December 1854 in his Constitution, 'Ineffabilis Deus'. However, the Catholic Church had
been celebrating the Feast of the Immaculate Conception as of 8 December 1476. Pope
Sixtus lV established the original feast day because the Church - the sensus fidelium- believed
in their hearts that Mary was conceived without sin. It was simply a matter of time until this
official doctrine and prevalent belief among the faithful became irrevocable dogma by
the infallible decree of a pope. The Bishop of Fatima officially approved the apparitions there
thirteen years after the great Miracle of the Sun which was witnessed by over 70,000 people.
Give Medjugorje time, and please go there. I intend to return a third time to celebrate Easter
and the Annunciation this year. :wink:
User avatar
By gabrielListens
#29454
I did not vote. I would instead like to note how this poll , by its design, can easily divide those who are faithful.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Our role as followers of Christ is not to judge other's faith but to follow His example through the gospel. The measure by which we judge others will be the measure by which we shall be judged.
Last edited by gabrielListens on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.
By jpinto
#29455
The main question here is:
"Full obedience to the Holy Catholic Church"
versus
"Medjugorje might lead many out of the Church, if it's not approved".

The problem is the deception that many people won't be able to take, if at same point it becames clear that the apparitions are false. So this pool is about putting people to think.
Is it wrong? Private revelations believers shouldn't think? I think they should...
Yet many of you have a misleading perception on the true position of The Church.


About my posts on other topics

Have you seen me deny my faith in The Holy Catholic Church?
Have you seen me being apart from The Church if people/visions/dreams/apparitions tell me to?
Have you seen me saying that who doesn't believe in Medjugorje, doesn't believe in the Lord?
Yet, i have seen many of you stating these things and more.

I've seen not one single post in this thread stating simply:
"I'm a loyal servant of The Holy Catholic Church, and the Pope, no matter what apparition tells me"
And this is what all the Saints lived, without exception.

People don't seem to know what is written in the Scriptures about those that desire apparitions and wonders, to the point of putting in question their full loyalty to The Church.

May the Lord have mercy on us all, because we know not what we are doing.


Putting Medjugorje on the side, some notes about Seeking The Truth

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
John 14:6

There is only one truth, and that is the Lord.

Now the first commandment tell us to have only one God, and one God only.
This God is the truth itself. He is not 99% true and 1% false, but 300% the truth.
Shall you find a small dust of doubt that contradicts the scriptures in any of your toughts/mind/visions/dreams whatever, then that doesn't come from the Lord, as He is the Perfect Truth, and He cannot contradict himself.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn."
Isaiah 8:20

(dawn: the first light of day)

Shall any of you find something that contradicts the Holy Bible from The Church, then you will have been given the sign that the event isn't true. Shall you persist on not believing the truth...

Follow The Holy Catholic Church, as one that truly seeks the Lord and seeks the Truth, and he who seeks shall find.
User avatar
By gabrielListens
#29456
jpinto wrote: The problem is the deception that many people won't be able to take, if at same point it becames clear that the apparitions are false.
Yes, I for one would be spritually devastated, but then again how would we feel if we were to find out there really is no God? To believe in God is to have faith in that which you cannot prove but that you feel strongly about and have discerned for yourself to be true - and so it is with Medjugorje.

jpinto, I just want you to know that I did not in any way mean to put down anything you wrote or believe. If it sounded that way, I apologize. I was only writing about how certain questions posed on this site might (even without intention) create division among us.

May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with our spirits. Amen.

gabriel
User avatar
By Sirach1717
#29458
Jpinto, Please answer my previous question. Do YOU believe in Medjugorje? I am patiently waiting for your answer.

Blessings,

Mary
User avatar
By MedjAdmin
#29459
Jpinto -- I hope this does not offend you, but it appears to me that you came on this forum to "fish" for an answer that you could use against our beliefs. We are open to cordial dialogue but we are also quite wary of deception, regardless of the motives of the person who baits the hook.

You were hoping for a big bite from a lunker but have thus far only gotten a few nibbles. That's because you will not find such a prime example of solid Catholic faith anywhere else in the sea -- these Medjugorje fishies are breathing new life into the Church and, in many cases, are bringing so many lost fish back to the "school."

On a side note, I love to fish and have worked often as a fishing guide. Caught a 15-pound tripletail off the coast just a few days ago. Yum! Still, being a "fisher of men" is much more fruitful and pleasing to the soul. :D
By leo daly
#29461
A triple tail eh ? I suppose they're mainly caught near nuclear reactors ?
Sorry
By jpinto
#29462
May that the Lord doesn't let me go on my own path, and doesn't let me try to discern myself for the truth, as i am easily deceiveable if He goes away from me.

Let also that what i personally believe about Medjugorje not be the reason to any of you to follow other path, as it is not in my hands to change your minds, but only in His.

Some advice...

One cannot pray and fast, and disregard the Truth.
One cannot pray and fast, and not educate himself in The Scripture, in today's world.
One cannot pray and fast, and think that he will change the world, because it is the Lord that will change the world through us, not us by ourselfs, because we are nothing without Him.

But...

One can pray and fast, and beg for the Lord's mercy, has He always listen.
One can pray and fast, and ask to be a humble instrument in His hands.
One can pray and fast, and rebuilt his faith from deception, as nothing can seperate us from the love of God.

The Lord alone is the owner of all things.
Think about this when you start believing in what is pleasant to your ears.

Who seeks for the truth, shall find.
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