Obedience to the local Bishop

[JosephJohnson]

The local Bishop whose diocese includes Medjugorje, Bishop Peric, has stated the following on June 15, 2006:

"As the local Bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far, throughout these last 25 years, the Church has not confirmed a single “apparition” as authentically being the Madonna."

He then makes the following dramatic appeal:

"Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church."

The local Bishop may indeed be wrong in this matter, but all Catholics are still obligated to obey his judgement. He alone has the sole authority to judge on the matter of Medjugorje. We should respect this authority of the local Bishop, because this authority comes from Christ Himself.

To disobey the local Bishop is to ursup the authority given him by Christ, and to place one's personal judgement above that of His Church, of whom the Bishop is the apostolic successor. If Medjugorje is from God, the obstacles of man will eventually be overcome. But in the meantime, one must obey the rightful authority of the local Bishop.

Some supporters of Medjugorje will reply "I will wait for Rome". Well, Rome practically never intervenes in matters of private revelations. Either way, until Rome does intervene (if ever) one must always obey the local Bishop in the meantime.

[bluecross]

deleted by bluecross :)

[4HimthroughHer]

Dear JosephJohnson,

The Commission and Pope Benedict XVI: Our Lady has a plan for everything and for every soul. We are inclined to rush and be impatient. Our Lady tells us, do not worry about Church recognition or the apparitions. You need to work on yourself. "Live and accept My messages and let Me do the part about the apparitions and Church recognition."

"I am with you, protect Medjugorje! Protect Our Lady's messages!"
Pope John Paul II

http://www.medjugorje.org/frjozoletter.htm

[bluecross]

deleted by bluecross

[Covenant]

The local Bishop may indeed be wrong in this matter, but all Catholics are still obligated to obey his judgement. He alone has the sole authority to judge on the matter of Medjugorje. We should respect this authority of the local Bishop, because this authority comes from Christ Himself.

To disobey the local Bishop is to ursup the authority given him by Christ, and to place one's personal judgement above that of His Church, of whom the Bishop is the apostolic successor. If Medjugorje is from God, the obstacles of man will eventually be overcome. But in the meantime, one must obey the rightful authority of the local Bishop..

Usually, you'd be correct. But in this case, you are very wrong.

Bishop Perics predecesor, Bishop Zanic, set up bogus commissions to "investigate" the apparitions, and his conclusions and his committee were shut down by Pope John Paul II.

In fact, the Pope took away all authority from the local bishop to judge this matter and gave it instead to the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia.

In 1990 the 'Zadar' Declaration said that as the apparitions were continuing, they could not give a final verdict. However, they did say that the bishops of Yugoslavia must provide "pastoral care" for the pilgrims coming to Medjugorje, in order to promote "authentic Marian devotion".

That is the final word of the Church on the matter: pilgrims are permitted to go to Medjugorje, which the Yugoslav Bishops acknowledged had become a shrine to Mary.

From time to time the local Bishop will still voice his opposition, but as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith clarified, whatever he says on Medjugorje is to be viewed as his "personal opinion" and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the state of the Medjugorje apparitions.

In short: pilgrims are free to visit Medjugorje and promote the messages. The Church's investigation to date resulted in a positive finding, and therefore Medjugorje is one hundred percent orthodox. That's why John Paul II on numerous occassions said that were he not Pope, he would have visited himself!

[starbright]

I have copied and pasted this from the articles me and Leo did about backing up Medjugorje when confronted by criticisms. Unfortunately the formatting got lost. Please read it all! Thanks.

Criticism 2: The Medjugorje visionaries are being disobedient to the Church

No order from any bishop can actually stop the visionaries having visions but bishops can try to place a gag order on the Franciscans and remove the seers from Church property.

The visionaries stopped having their visions in the Church at the request of Bishop Zanic (previous bishop of Mostar). Bishops Zanic and Peric (current bishop of Mostar) have tried to stop Medjugorje from promoting the visions by telling the visionaries to stop claiming that they have been seeing Mary. But this has not been done officially, just mentioned in a homily, therefore as far as the visionaries are concerned it is hearsay. Besides, the Bishop has no authority to stop a human being from claiming apparitions anyway, no bishop has. They only have the authority to make a judgement on behalf of the church for others to follow.

According to a decree in 1966 by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith, seers do not need ecclesiastical approval for private revelations:

A. Ecclesiastical permission is not required for publication of revelations, visions, miracles or for the
frequenting of non-recognized places of apparitions.

A decree of the "Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith" was published in the "Official Acts of
the Holy See" (A.A.S.) 58/16, dated December 29.1966.

Articles 1399 and 2318 of Canon Law are abrogated by this decree.

This decree of abrogation was approved October 14, 1966 by His Holiness the Sovereign Pontiff Paul VI. who ordered at the same time its publication.

This approval by the Holy Father took place during an audience accorded to His Eminence Cardinal Ottaviani,
Pro-Prefect for the "Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith."

The decree was made in Rome. November 15, 1966. It bears the signatures of:

A. Cardinal Ottaviani. Pro-Prefect

P. Parente. Secretary

The decree took effect three months after its publication, hence on March 29.1967.

Canon 1399

The Canon 1399 forbade by right the publication of certain books such as those that deal with revelations, visions, prophecies and miracles.

This Canon has been repealed. This means that as far as these publications are concerned, the prohibition is lifted as to their being bound by ecclesiastical law. This means that henceforth: Catholics are permitted without need of Imprimatur, or of NIhil Obstat. or any other permission. to publish accounts of revelations, visions, prophecies and miracles. Of course these publications must not put in danger the Faith or the Morals: this is the general rule which every Catholic must follow in all his actions, even journalists. especially Journalists.

There is hence no longer any prohibition concerning the narrative of seers. be they recognized or not by Ecclesiastical Authority.

All the more reason is it permitted for Catholics to frequent places of Apparitions, even those not recognized by the Ordinaries of the diocese or by the Holy Father Granted that the Catholic visitors who frequent these places must respect the Faith and the Morals. However, they are not subject to any ecclesiastical discipline, not even for their public prayers.

Permission is required only for the celebration of Holy Mass or any other religious service.

Canon 2318

Canon 2318 carried penalties against those who violated the taws of censure and prohibition.

This Canon is abrogated since 1966. None can incur ecclesiastical censure for frequenting places of Apparitions even those not recognized by the Ordinaries of dioceses or by the Holy Father.

Also. "those who would have incurred the censures treated in Canon 2318 will be like absolved by the very fact of the abrogation of this Canon." (Cardinal Ottaviani)

So the visionaries do not need the permission of the Bishop of Mostar to make public their private revelations.

Bishop Zanic set up a commission to investigate the authenticity of the visions, but Cardinal Ratzinger rejected it and gave the authority to the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference. Their conclusion was the Zadar Declaration of 1991, which said that investigations continued and that in the meantime pastoral care was to be given to the pilgrims:

DECLARATION OF THE EX-YUGOSLAVIA BISHOPS' CONFERENCE ON MEDJUGORJE

At the ordinary session of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia in Zadar from April 9 - 11, 1991 the following was adopted.

DECLARATION

The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje.

On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.

However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church.

For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje.
In Zadar April 10, 1991

The Bishops of Yugoslavia
(Zagreb Glas Koncila May 5, 1991 19)

Here is a letter answering questions from the Bishop of Langres, France, asked on 14th February 1996, asking what the position of the Church is and whether people are allowed to go there for pilgrimage. The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith replied with this letter through its secretary. It shows that Bishop Ratko Peric does not have authority over the Church’s decision on Medjugorje.

CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI
Citta del Vaticano, Palazzo del S. Uffizio
Pr. No 154/81-06419
May 26, 1998
To His Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry,
Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion

Excellency,

In your letter of January 1, 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery several questions about the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar in regard to the so-called apparitions of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages and the pastoral care of the faithful who go there.

In regard to this matter, I think it is impossible to reply to each of the questions posed by Your Excellency. The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.” Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations, it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Herzegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for.

What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.

Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.
I hope that I have replied satisfactorily at least to the principal questions that you have presented to this Dicastery and I beg Your Excellency to accept the expression of my devoted sentiments.

Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone
(Secretary to the "Congregation for the Doctrine,” presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger)

This is the summary of the letter:
1. The declarations of the Bishop of Mostar only reflect his personal opinion. Consequently, they are not an official and definitive judgement from the Church.
2. One is directed to the declaration of Zadar, which leaves the door open to future investigations. In the meanwhile, private pilgrimages with pastoral accompaniment for the faithful are permitted.
3. A new commission could eventually be named.
4. In the meanwhile, all Catholics may go as pilgrims to Medjugorje.
We can’t but be thankful for this long awaited explanation.”

It can therefore be seen that the bishop of Mostar’s opinion is his own private opinion, which he is entitled to as local Bishop, but remains his personal opinion and does not affect the visionaries.

The jurisdiction over the visions and visionaries belongs to the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference.

Marija, Ivan and Mirjana do not live all the time in Medjugorje and so are not under the bishop of Mostar anyway for large parts of the year.

[JosephJohnson]

Here is an excellent article from Father Peter Joseph on the subject of obedience and private revelations:

"Even should the local bishop mistakenly disapprove of a genuine revelation, obedience to the Church remains paramount. In some cases, it is a sin to propagate a private revelation, but it can never be a sin not to propagate one. This applies both to claimed seers and to followers. In fact, if an alleged visionary disobeys a legitimate order from the bishop, this is a sure sign that the message is not from God. Even if a genuine private revelation has been given, not even God Himself would want or command a seer to spread it against a lawful decree of a bishop to desist."

see full article here:
http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2000/ ... 20_38.html

[Covenant]

Are you illiterate or something? We just posted the situation RE the local bishop of Medjugorje.

And can it be a sin to ignore a revelation from God? Absolutely! Failure to follow the directives of Fatima gave us World War II and the Cold War.

My advice to you is that you stop focusing so much on the authority of bishops and focus on the Spirit of God.

[Francis86]

We just recently discussed this same topic on another thread, is this a coincidence or what ? Medjugorje Forum; A global community of Believers! Bless you
' Praised Be Jesus'

[mcikath]

Hi! this is only my personal opinion of Medjugorje, which i worked out for myself, the apparitions can only be coming from either an evil source or a good source, and since all the fruits of Medjugorej[showing in the example of the people who have visited there] and also the messages from Our Lady--it just has to be from a good source as the messages are promoting good e.g. Confession , Prayer, Rosary, pray for priests, so i think that is all i need to know to believe-- and there is no way the evil forces would promote good messages to the world--What would the devil gain by that ?
This is just my own personal opinion, and i will continue to promote the Medjugorje Apparitions and i do not feel that i am committing a sin by doing so. I leave out leaflets in our church, which are beautifully put together and make lovely reading, and also i talk about Medjugorje with my friends and family, and let them know my belief in it, and also chat on this forum about it. Does anyone here think i am committing a sin by doing this? i would love to know your opinions. Also, the best example was the late Pope John Paul's views on it --didnt he say if he was not a Pope he would go to Medjugorje, and instead he goes there in spirit. Hope i dont offend anyone by this post--it is not intended to offend, love and peace
mcikath xxx

[puddyhuston]

Well said Mcikath and you could never offend anyone.
Joseph read this thread as we had this discussion with the truth just recently

http://www.medjugorje-online.com/forum/ ... c&start=75

Believe me Medjugorje is from God, I know 3 people who have had healings there, plus I have seen amazing things.

[MarianFollower]

Are you illiterate or something? We just posted the situation RE the local bishop of Medjugorje.

And can it be a sin to ignore a revelation from God? Absolutely! Failure to follow the directives of Fatima gave us World War II and the Cold War.

My advice to you is that you stop focusing so much on the authority of bishops and focus on the Spirit of God.

Covenant,

Are you a follower of Mary? Why would you give this advise to our
Christian brother, that he should not be listening to the Bishops, when they are truly
the representatives of Christ in their diocese? They have the Spirit
of God with them.

They confirm us with the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Confirmation thus they are filled with the Holy Spirit of God.

This is not a fruit from Mary, Our Mother.

Carmen.

[MedjAdmin]

Critics of Medjugorje often use Bishop Peric's infamous 2006 homily to claim that the Bishop gave an order for the visionaries to stop having apparitions, but notice he did not repeat it in 2007 when he spoke at the Confirmation again.

I recently read that 2006 homily again, and there is a part that most critics like to leave out. Bishop Peric said it perfectly, when he explained his stance on the apparitions but concluded "...all the while recognizing the Holy Father's right to give a final decision on these events."

Even the bishop acknowledges that he does not have the final say on Medjugorje. This makes sense because, after all, the Vatican issued a clear statement which tells the faithful that whatever the bishop says regarding Medjugorje is his personal opinion. I'm happy that the Bishop recognizes and agrees with that as well.

It's good to hear it from his own words -- it seems that most of Medjugorje's critics seem to overlook that part or remove it altogether when quoting from the homily, doesn't it? To me, leaving that out is a sad distortion of the truth.

Take care and God bless.

[Covenant]

Covenant,

Are you a follower of Mary? Why would you give this advise to our
Christian brother, that he should not be listening to the Bishop, when they are truly the representatives of Christ in their diocese? They have the Spirit of God with them.

This is not a fruit from Mary, Our Mother.

Carmen.

I think that you are also illiterate, Carmen: The Holy See has stated EMPHATICALLY, that the local bishop has ZERO INPUT on Medjugorje. It's out of his hands. Anything he says is his "personal opinion".

[MarianFollower]

Covenant,

Are you a follower of Mary? Why would you give this advise to our
Christian brother, that he should not be listening to the Bishop, when they are truly the representatives of Christ in their diocese? They have the Spirit of God with them.

This is not a fruit from Mary, Our Mother.

Carmen.

I think that you are also illiterate, Carmen: The Holy See has stated EMPHATICALLY, that the local bishop has ZERO INPUT on Medjugorje. It's out of his hands. Anything he says is his "personal opinion".

Yes, I am illiterate, and for this reason I can't comprehend why
would a person ,who says that loves Mary, would point out that
the representatives of the Church, the Bishops and their authority
are not to be part of our focus ,but only the Spirit of God.

Sounds like something Luther or Calvin would say.

Carmen.