Chat with other believers about Medjugorje.

Moderators: TimHaley, MedjAdmin, Management

#61588
The Medjugorje apparitions are a scientific fact. As such, Medjugorje can’t be dismissed according to one’s religious beliefs. Medjugorje is a real phenomenon which proves that something supernatural is going on, and has been going on, daily since 1981.

Medical and scientific tests conducted on the visionaries prove, beyond all doubt, that the visionaries are in fact experiencing an ecstasy, an apparition, and while they are in this state, they are literally in another world.

Various scientists, professors and psychologists have conducted through examinations on the visionaries both before, during and after their visions, and all have concluded that the visionaries are mentally sound, that they aren’t faking their experience or lying and that the apparition itself places them into a state that is “scientifically inexplicable”.

Tests on the visionaries by competent authorities began in 1982. Dr Ludvik Stopar, a Yugoslav psychiatrist and parapsychologist, interviewed all the visionaries and used various methods, including hypnotism, to conclude that the children were healthy and truthful in their testimony. “In Medjugorje” he said, “I had the impression of coming into contact with a supernatural reality”

In 1984 a team of doctors from Milan began tests on the visionaries during their ecstasy, and during one such test, observed how the seers don’t react to what’s going on around them. The doctor lifted the boy Jakov off the ground and found that he did not even flinch. When Jakov was put down ‘his legs went from the vertical to the horizontal in the most natural and spontaneous fashion’. This ruled out the possibility of catalepsy.

Dr. Lucia Capello, also from Italy, observed the strange synchronizations which occurred during the apparitions: the fact that the seers fell to their knees at the exact same time, how their voices became inaudible while their lips continued to move and how each seer’s voice became audible again saying the third word to the Our Father….obviously in response to the apparition beginning with ‘Our Father’. The seers did this with no outside prompt, and similarly, their eyes and heads moved in unison when the apparition ceased with the word ‘ode’ (she’s gone) coming after, and not before-again, ruling out the idea that there was anyone prompting or leading the group. As the doctors could see, not even the greatest mime artists in the world could pull off an act like that!

Dr. Capello also testified to the fact that seers weren’t misfits or strange in any way, but rather she found them, “discreet, well-mannered, careful in their dress and in their speech and absolutely aware of their surroundings. Their behavior seemed to conform perfectly with that of other young people of the same age.”

In April of 1984, Dr. Enzo Gabrici, a neuro-psychiatrist also examined the visionaries, and ruled out any psychosis or outside manipulation like hypnosis:

“Clinical observation has also excluded hallucinatory phenomena, as well as the habitual signs of epilepsy or any other malfunction capable of producing altered states of consciousness. There are no symptoms which would suggest that the subjects are living out something previously suggested under hypnosis. The visionaries can recall with absolute lucidity what has happened to them…They retain perfect consciousness of their own identity.”

Professor Maria Franchini found that the visionaries were a ‘group’ made up of individuals who had nothing binding them together other than the apparition:

‘The group is made up of a number of independent individuals. Each has his or her own attitude, but all are drawn towards an external object which holds their attention with an intensity which I have never before experienced, and which in my view makes their experience unique.’


A team of French doctors led by Professor Henri Joyeux in 1984 carried out what was up to then the most comprehensive of tests, looking in particular how the brain reacted to the apparitions. Electro-encephalogrpahs were made of the visionaries as were elector-cardiograms. The heart beats of the visionaries remained normal during the apparition, and only increased for the minute following. Tests during the apparition ruled out the possibility that the visionaries were dreaming or hallucinating as their brains remained ‘in the alpha rhythm, the rhythm of wakefulness and receptivity, the rhythm of the contemplative in calm prayer.’

Dr F Rouquerol conducted a sound test on the visionary Ivan both before and during the apparition which was most fascinating. Before the apparition, Ivan “jumped” when a 70 decibel noise was made next to his ear. But during the apparition Ivan didn’t react at all, even when the noise was increased to 90 decibels…the sound of a small explosion. Afterwards Ivan said that he’d “heard nothing at all”.

Dr. Rouquerol also investigated why the voices of the visionaries went quiet during the apparition, while their lips continued to move.

‘During the recitation of the Rosary before the apparitions began, the needle indicating that the larynx muscles were working moved up and down the scale. When ecstasy began the voice became inaudible, the needle stopped and the larynx no longer moved. The lips continued to move, as the visionaries spoke to the apparitions; but no sound was registered on the equipment. When the voice returned to normal on the third word of the Our Father, the needle moved again…the movements of the larynx returned.’

Doctors had never seen the voice box and the larynx operate independently of each other.

Professor Joyeux’s report concluded:

“The phenomenon is scientifically inexplicable. The visionaries of Medjugorje are not drop outs or dreamers, nor are they tired or anxious…they are free and happy. The ecstasies are not pathological nor is there any element of deceit. No scientific discipline seems able to describe these phenomena. We would be quite willing to define them as a state of active, intense prayer, partially disconnected from the outside world, a state of contemplation with a separate person whom they alone can see, hear and touch.”


In 1985 Professor Santini used an ‘algometer’, which measures one’s resistance to burns, to test the visionaries sensitivity to pain. A heated silver disc was applied to the seers arms before the apparition, and they pulled back within three tenths of a second-like most normal people do. However, during the apparition they didn’t react at all-even though the burning disc was applied for seven seconds!

Tests by Dr Paolo Maestri found the reason why there was no reaction: tracing the never impulses from eye and ear to the cortex of the brain, he found that ‘the visionaries consciousness was elsewhere, an did not reply’.

Professor Margnelli’s final report said:

“Ecstasy for these young people is invincible and spontaneous-and authentic. Normally an emotional stimuli provokes an immediate, though possibility brief, reaction from an individual. But in the present case, neither normally painful stimuli, nor a nylon thread in the eye, nor any of the other experiments provoked any reaction at all. In every case, the metaphorical telephone rang for someone who wasn’t there. We must therefore be dealing with an authentic ecstasy.”

The Medjugorje apparitions, therefore, are real. They are of supernatural origin. They confirm, to me, the existence of God.

But if they are of supernatural origins, some would say: well the devil could be behind it!

But what test do we use then to judge the apparitions? The test that Jesus gave us: look at the fruit!

The fruit of Medjugorje is very good: messages from the apparition call people to conversion, prayer, Confession, Mass, Bible reading, charity work.

Millions of people have been converted, and thousands have claimed healings of various medical conditions.

And the fruits with the visionaries are also very good: after more than 25 years of apparitions they remain happy, humble, completely sane people who are living very holy lives.

There can be no other conclusion that these apparitions are the real deal, that they are everything the visionaries claim them to be.

God has sent the Blessed Mother to call the world back to Him, to convert and make peace on earth. This enormous grace shows the great mercy and love of God, who is compassionate and patient with humanity.

(Sources for these tests found in Rene Laurentin and Henri Joyeux ‘Etudes Medicales et Scientificques sur Medjugorje’ Paris, OEIL, 1985.

Luigi Frigerio, L. Bianchi and Giacomo Mattalia, ‘Dossier Scentifico s Medjugorje’ Presentazione di Flaminio Piccoli, 1985

And Mary Craig, ‘Spark from Heaven: the Mystery of the Madonna of Medjugorje’ Hodder and Soughton, 1988 chapter. 13)
By enda77
#61593
Why does it take carefully examined scientific tests to make people believe?
I know it does for me...lol....
By nicodemus
#61601
I thought that was a great post Covenant.

God bless
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By puddyhuston
#61605
I had read this before Covenant but lovely to see it on the forum for any skeptics who might visit us

Stella
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By bluecross
#61608
Covenant... While scientific tests can reach many conclusions, they cannot yet conclude that the visionaries are seeing the Blessed Virgin Mary.

They cannot yet conclude the authenticity of the messages.

They cannot yet conclude the workings of God’s grace in people’s hearts.

While science may conclude that the visionaries are in a state of ecstasy, science cannot yet conclude the visionaries are seeing an apparition. (Does science define what an apparition is?)

The only “proof” or answer that science can state on Medjugorje is that it does not yet have an answer to the claim that Our Lady is appearing to six visionaries.

This is the Church’s stance on Medjugorje. It does not say the apparitions are happening, neither does it say the apparitions are not happening. It prefers to wait and gather further knowledge and information to reach a judgement one way or another.

Strange how the Church and science are aligned with each other in this way.

The real answer, the visible proof, is faith and its fruits. I believe that faith can be established in people’s hearts through the workings and gifts of others. Our God of revelation reveals himself through his creation, and especially his children.

When the visible third sign appears, there will be no need for scientific proof or even for the Church to say that what is happening at Medjugorje is the truth. The sign will speak for itself to the people, to the world, and even to the “Church”.

This will be a direct “revealing” of the truth without any filter or condition imposed by science or the Church.

These are my personal thoughts and opinion, and I am not trying to make claim that I know any more than anyone else does on this matter.
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By Covenant
#61612
Science can confirm that the visionaries are experiencing real states of ecstasy and that afterwards the seers testify without any guile that the figure they see looks and identifies itself as the Blessed Virgin Mary.

None of this can be disputed. The Church cannot even dispute that they are having apparitions, because they would be denying science.

Since science has confirmed that the apparitions have no human origin, and therefore fall in the realm of the 'supernatural', all that the Church can do is make a decision as to whether these apparitions find their source from God or the devil.

And since its pretty obvious from the content of the messages and the various other fruits that these apparitions could not have a diabolical origin, the answer is quite clear: these apparitions are from God.

Pope John Paul II certainly made vocal his belief in the Medjugorje apparitions, but until they cease, there will not be an offical approval.
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By starbright
#61621
Covenant, thank you so much. I copied it and pasted it to an email, and sent it to various family members, ranging from those who think it might be happening, through those who are Catholic but don't really want to think about it, right to those who are atheists.

I pray that it will convert the atheists.

God bless.
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By rogertc
#61623
Well I'm not going to waste your time Covenant & contest what I know to be true, but only to give you what we call in my family "un abazo de gracias hermano" ) a big hug of thanks my brother. Truly appreciate it thanks again. Fabulous !
Last edited by rogertc on Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By bluecross
#61630
The Church cannot even dispute that they are having apparitions, because they would be denying science.
Covenant... sorry to be a pain, but I do find this statement misleading.

Science may define the visionaries as being in ecstasy, but science does not conclude they are experiencing an apparition. It is the visionaries who state they are seeing the Blessed Virgin, not the scientists.

Forum members may be interested in reading an authoritative scientific study made on the visionaries by Dr James Pandarakalam, who is based in the U.K.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/js ... 15n2a7.php

http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/drpaul.htm

Like A Heavenly Breeze
A Doctor’s view of Medjugorje
• by Dr James Paul Pandarakalam
• Medjugorje Division of Theistic Parapyschology, 1995
• Pandarak Paul Bros Publicaton, 1997
• ISBN 095315940x
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By rogertc
#61647
No Sir I don't find either yours nor covs post misleading at all. Both are good and BOTH science groups come out with same findings therefore I appreciate and thank you too Blue for your resource and both find what is occurring in Medjugorje as Supernatural and the visionaries are not fabricating their experience when the 'event' occurrs.

No sir At 52 it gets harder & harder to fool or misleads this old tired brain of mine and many can try but you need to get up pretty early in the morning sipping at a lot of little cups of hot tea to even have a chance.
And I'm done here.
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By Ger
#61651
LOL Roger!

Just for you: a wee quote from a Bob Dylan song:

'Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that, now.'

:lol:
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By bluecross
#61657
No sir At 52 it gets harder & harder to fool or misleads this old tired brain of mine and many can try but you need to get up pretty early in the morning sipping at a lot of little cups of hot tea to even have a chance.
Roger, so what does that say for a 61-year-old?! :)

Ger... I remember queueing up all night for a ticket when Dylan made his first tour of the UK in 19?? I think I must have been about 18 at the time!

A friend of mine who was studying in London around the same time popped into his local pub one night, shortly followed by Joan Baez and Bob Dylan who sat down and played blues piano most of the night.

We used to see a lot of U.S. names in Britain in those days. A couple of years earlier (I know I was 16 at the time) I went to see the Everly Brothers (well only one actually, Don Everly was rushed back home after a drugs problem at Heathrow). Dionne Warwick was also on the bill.

Support act was the Rolling Stones. They had just released their first single, “C’mon”. Funny, what direction life takes for some people. :)
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By Covenant
#61838
Thanks Roger and Nicodemus. And Starbright, I hope it helps!

And Bluecross, in reply to your comment "It is the visionaries who state they are seeing the Blessed Virgin, not the scientists"

That's true: but the scientists have confirmed that the seers are having a real experience and that they are not lying at all. So, you can say scientifically that the seers fall into an ecstasy where they experience an apparition of a figure that they identify as the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Church can't deny that the seers experience apparitions of a figure who identifies herself as the Blessed Virgin.

If the Church, however, found heretical teaching in the messages or found other evidence of a diabolical source for the apparitions, then they could condemn the apparitions.

To date the Church has found nothing erroneous in the messages relayed by the visionaries nor has any evidence been presented that would in any way lead to the conclusion that these apparitions aren't what they claim to be: true and valid visitations of the Blessed Virgin Mary, just as she appeared in Lourdes and Fatima. :D
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By bluecross
#61841
That's true: but the scientists have confirmed that the seers are having a real experience and that they are not lying at all. So, you can say scientifically that the seers fall into an ecstasy where they experience an apparition of a figure that they identify as the Blessed Virgin Mary.
AMEN! :)
The Church can't deny that the seers experience apparitions of a figure who identifies herself as the Blessed Virgin.

If the Church, however, found heretical teaching in the messages or found other evidence of a diabolical source for the apparitions, then they could condemn the apparitions.
But by saying this you are not accepting that the Church has not decided one way or another. Silence does not mean “yes”. Nor does it mean “no”. The Church is waiting. The case is still open. There may be more evidence required.
To date the Church has found nothing erroneous in the messages relayed by the visionaries nor has any evidence been presented that would in any way lead to the conclusion that these apparitions aren't what they claim to be: true and valid visitations of the Blessed Virgin Mary, just as she appeared in Lourdes and Fatima.
Your claim about ‘nothing erroneous’ is only an opinion, so also is your claim about evidence presented. We are not privy to know what information the commision has received, or its opinion about the messages. And your conclusion is incorrect, because the Church has not decided. This is simply your opinion, but I understand the point you are making. However, we must be careful not to make assertions in the name of the Church on something the Church has not yet decided upon.
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By Covenant
#61856
The Church hasn't been completely silent: Pope John Paul II disbanded the local Bishops negative commission and its ruling and appointed the Yugoslav Bishops Conference to investigate the matter.

In 1991 the Zadar Declaration gave a positive ruling: It stated that due to the ongoing nature of the apparitions a final judgment could not be made, but rather they would "continue to keep up with and investigate the entire events in Medjugorje." Instead of deterring pilgrimages, they said instead:

"However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church."

As no other official pronouncements have been made regarding Medjugorje, Zadar remains the stance of the Church. And I'm very happy with that stance.
:D
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By bluecross
#61874
As no other official pronouncements have been made regarding Medjugorje, Zadar remains the stance of the Church. And I'm very happy with that stance.
AMEN! :)

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